Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers, Holland torpedohruizer

[miketr]

As you roll thicker and thicker armor it gets harder.  There is a reason that the US Standard Class didn't have armor heavier than 13.5" belts.  The biggest problem is quality control. 

To be honest I think we should have some type of limit on armor thickness.  For that mater guns should have an upper end limit on guns.  18" is the largest practical gun size, despite design for 19" and 20" guns, the blast effects are just too extreme.

Michael

[Logi]

My 15" belt is actually 1" forward belt and a 14" main belt.

But yes, that was my point miketr.

[Guinness]

As you roll thicker and thicker armor it gets harder.  There is a reason that the US Standard Class didn't have armor heavier than 13.5" belts.  The biggest problem is quality control.  

To be honest I think we should have some type of limit on armor thickness.  For that mater guns should have an upper end limit on guns.  18" is the largest practical gun size, despite design for 19" and 20" guns, the blast effects are just too extreme.

Michael

This isn't the place for this but I've had the thought of extending the armor tech tree where new levels would describe the thickest armor plate that can be rolled.

[damocles]

One word answer.......

Tillman

D.

[Valles]

My understanding is that, at the moment, the Maori are rolling the thickest face-hardened plates in the world, and I've been advised that 'thicker than 15"' isn't really possible. If that restriction gets relaxed at some point, I'll probably go to 40cm plates for my next BB design, whenever that is.

[damocles]

Panzer schippe, HOLLAND TILLMAN laid down 1920

Displacement:
   46,418 t light; 49,608 t standard; 52,080 t normal; 54,058 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   775.00 ft / 775.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 35.00 ft (normal load)
   236.22 m / 236.22 m x 36.58 m  x 10.67 m

Armament:
      12 - 15.94" / 405 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,026.91lbs / 919.39kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (8x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 25,498 lbs / 11,566 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.8" / 375 mm   475.72 ft / 145.00 m   13.15 ft / 4.01 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   475.72 ft / 145.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.95" / 75 mm   468.00 ft / 142.65 m   33.87 ft / 10.32 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.8" / 375 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      15.9" / 405 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 6.10" / 155 mm, Conning tower: 14.76" / 375 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 116,715 shp / 87,069 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,450 tons

Complement:
   1,723 - 2,240

Cost:
   £11.518 million / $46.074 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,187 tons, 6.1 %
   Armour: 18,242 tons, 35.0 %
      - Belts: 4,894 tons, 9.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,732 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armament: 3,777 tons, 7.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 7,396 tons, 14.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 444 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,081 tons, 7.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,907 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,662 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     60,878 lbs / 27,614 Kg = 30.0 x 15.9 " / 405 mm shells or 10.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 7.9 ft / 2.4 m
   Roll period: 17.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.52 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.78 ft / 5.72 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.78 ft / 5.72 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.78 ft / 5.72 m
      - Stern:      18.78 ft / 5.72 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.64 ft / 5.99 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 65,515 Square feet or 6,087 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 230 lbs/sq ft or 1,121 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.25
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

1000 tons misc.
  250 tons fire contriol
    25 tons radfio
    25 tons radar
    25 tons acoustics
  150 tons torpefoes
  525 tons for additions.   .

[damocles]

Macht , Holland frigate laid down 1920

Displacement:
   45,942 t light; 49,253 t standard; 51,704 t normal; 53,665 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   767.72 ft / 767.72 ft x 118.11 ft x 36.09 ft (normal load)
   234.00 m / 234.00 m x 36.00 m  x 11.00 m

Armament:
     12 - 16.14" / 410 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,102.91lbs / 953.86kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
     12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 26,974 lbs / 12,235 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   499.02 ft / 152.10 m   13.06 ft / 3.98 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.95" / 75 mm   499.02 ft / 152.10 m   33.20 ft / 10.12 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   6.89" / 175 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

  - Armour deck: 5.91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 133,634 shp / 99,691 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,412 tons

Complement:
   1,713 - 2,228

Cost:
   £12.041 million / $48.165 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,372 tons, 6.5 %
   Armour: 16,855 tons, 32.6 %
      - Belts: 4,244 tons, 8.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,810 tons, 3.5 %
      - Armament: 3,420 tons, 6.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 6,933 tons, 13.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 447 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,673 tons, 9.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,043 tons, 38.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,762 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55,456 lbs / 25,155 Kg = 26.4 x 16.1 " / 410 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 7.7 ft / 2.4 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.553
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.52 ft / 9.30 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.42 ft / 5.92 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.42 ft / 5.92 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.42 ft / 5.92 m
      - Stern:      19.42 ft / 5.92 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.31 ft / 6.19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 63,460 Square feet or 5,896 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 234 lbs/sq ft or 1,142 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.36
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

1000 tons misc.
 250 tons fire control
   25 tons radio
   25 tons acoustics
   25 tons radar
 150 tons torpedoes
 525 tons spare.  

Inclined  belt: all or nothing protection.  

[Guinness]

Any ship so large would certainly require the capital ship diesel tech to be diesel driven, I think.

[damocles]

Back to the torpedokruizer problem

TK-C class , Holland Torrpedokruizer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   3,202 t light; 3,309 t standard; 3,800 t normal; 4,193 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   410.26 ft / 400.00 ft x 35.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   125.05 m / 121.92 m x 10.67 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      6 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (3x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 365 lbs / 166 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 41,425 shp / 30,903 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 884 tons

Complement:
   241 - 314

Cost:
   £0.835 million / $3.339 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 192 tons, 5.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 21 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 166 tons, 4.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,448 tons, 38.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,266 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 598 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 6.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,980 lbs / 898 Kg = 33.2 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.475
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (40 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.64 ft / 4.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 49.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,122 Square feet or 847 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

250 tons Misc.
  25 tobs radio
  25 tons radar
  25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes
  25 tons spare       .

All or nothing; incllned protective deck.

This is not ideal. Suggestions welcome.

[Ithekro]

A torpedo cruiser, eh?  I'd recommend more torpedoes.  8 on each side of the ship plus reloads.  This way the cruiser can engage one or more targets relatoivelt quickly by bringing her unengaged flank to bear on the target and then steaming away to reload the tubes.  This would be more fitting than firing a salvo of fish and then having to steam off to reload or just be out of torpedoes and forced into a gun fight she is not well suited to be involved with only six main guns.

Also more fish means a higher probability of hitting with more spreads in the water to cover your enemies possible evasive manuevers.

[damocles]

A torpedo cruiser, eh?  I'd recommend more torpedoes.  8 on each side of the ship plus reloads.  This way the cruiser can engage one or more targets relativity quickly by bringing her unengaged flank to bear on the target and then steaming away to reload the tubes.  This would be more fitting than firing a salvo of fish and then having to steam off to reload or just be out of torpedoes and forced into a gun fight she is not well suited to be involved with only six main guns.

Also more fish means a higher probability of hitting with more spreads in the water to cover your enemies possible evasive maneuvers.

TK-C class , Holland Torrpedokruizer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   3,202 t light; 3,309 t standard; 3,800 t normal; 4,193 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   410.26 ft / 400.00 ft x 35.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   125.05 m / 121.92 m x 10.67 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      6 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (3x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 365 lbs / 166 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 41,425 shp / 30,903 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 884 tons

Complement:
   241 - 314

Cost:
   £0.835 million / $3.339 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 192 tons, 5.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 21 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 166 tons, 4.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,448 tons, 38.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,266 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 598 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 6.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,895 lbs / 860 Kg = 31.8 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.475
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (40 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.64 ft / 4.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 23.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,122 Square feet or 847 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

250 tons Misc.
  25 tobs radio
  25 tons radar
  25 tons acoustiocs
150 tons torpedoes (3 reloads)
  25 tons spare       .

All or nothing; inclined protective deck

==============================================

Many thanks to Ithreko for a great idea. This will be something that might go BOOM but it is so much what I have in mind with my current thinking on Dutch tactics that it actually fits my fleet even with the lousy gun characteristics. The max on that hull is 12 x 610mm  torpedo tubes, though.

The reloads are what makes the cruisers such boom toys.

[Ithekro]

Well going BOOM is a side effect of many torpedo cruisers...are the big torpedoes oxygen driven or something not quite so....flammable?

[damocles]

Well going BOOM is a side effect of many torpedo cruisers...are the big torpedoes oxygen driven or something not quite so....flammable?

1918: (+8) 20000@26, 15000@30, 10000@35, 300kg warhead (+2) 3t weight, 24"

It won't be until 1926-1928 that the oxygen fish would be ready. At the moment they are either electrics (slow speed setting=wetheater) or large wetheaters.   

[P3D]

That battleship looks like having a block coefficient of 0.75 or so, it should look somewhat sleeker.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I like the Macht ... some minor issues (diesel, no. of AA guns) aside.
Borys