1059 Class

[damocles]

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Comments welcome.

[Carthaginian]

A handsome looking ship... power and fast enough.
A bit thin on the armor for my taste, but it can outrun damn near anything that can get through that armor.

[Logi]

Deck is a bit thick and the belt is a bit thin. Though I am curious why you have torpedoes on a 30k ton battleship....

[Carthaginian]

Deck is a bit thick and the belt is a bit thin. Though I am curious why you have torpedoes on a 30k ton battleship....

I'd say the same reason that a man carrying an elephant gun might carry a small pistol as well; sometimes, things get too close for those big guns to be handy- and a torpedo might just make them rethink that.

[Logi]

I think at 30k tons, you should have enough escorts to protect your capital ship. Unless you think 30k ton ships are cruisers...

[Guinness]

Well, for one thing, it's a Dutch frigate. One would not expect it to hang out in big lines of battle. In that context torpedoes might be useful in quickly dispatching a wounded opponent or merchant man. Dutch frigates have traditionally carried them for such a purpose.

A stylistic note: including the ss specs in an offsite image is inconvenient for two reasons: 1. It's not terribly searchable later. 2. If for whatever reason that image ceases to exist, we have no record of the design here. Damocles: could you please at least include the text in the Dutch encyclopedia please?

EDIT: Also, there is no 1917 engine year. It's either 1916 or 1920.

[Carthaginian]

Well, even NelRod had those 24.5" monsters aboard.
Some nations kept torps aboard capital ships longer than others.

[Borys]

Ahoj!

A stylistic note: including the ss specs in an offsite image is inconvenient for two reasons: 1. It's not terribly searchable later. 2. If for whatever reason that image ceases to exist, we have no record of the design here. Damocles: could you please at least include the text in the Dutch encyclopedia please?

Seconded.
Borys

[damocles]

Well, for one thing, it's a Dutch frigate. One would not expect it to hang out in big lines of battle. In that context torpedoes might be useful in quickly dispatching a wounded opponent or merchant man. Dutch frigates have traditionally carried them for such a purpose.

A stylistic note: including the ss specs in an offsite image is inconvenient for two reasons: 1. It's not terribly searchable later. 2. If for whatever reason that image ceases to exist, we have no record of the design here. Damocles: could you please at least include the text in the Dutch encyclopedia please?

EDIT: Also, there is no 1917 engine year. It's either 1916 or 1920.

Arnheim, Holland 1059 class laid down 1915

Displacement:
   30,154 t light; 32,081 t standard; 33,928 t normal; 35,406 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720.87 ft / 713.00 ft x 117.50 ft x 26.20 ft (normal load)
   219.72 m / 217.32 m x 35.81 m  x 7.99 m

Armament:
     8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 14,736 lbs / 6,684 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   463.85 ft / 141.38 m   12.99 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   463.85 ft / 141.38 m   23.88 ft / 7.28 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

  - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 107,975 shp / 80,549 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,324 tons

Complement:
   1,249 - 1,624

Cost:
   £4.619 million / $18.474 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,842 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 9,215 tons, 27.2 %
      - Belts: 2,650 tons, 7.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 807 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 1,313 tons, 3.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,223 tons, 12.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 222 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 4,090 tons, 12.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,506 tons, 42.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,774 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,905 lbs / 18,554 Kg = 24.4 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 6.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 17.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 83 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.541
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.07 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 83
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.37 ft / 8.95 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Stern:      18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.54 ft / 5.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 57,977 Square feet or 5,386 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 974 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

500 tons
150 tons fire control
 25 tons radio
 25 radar
 25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes 4 x reloads

All or nothing protection and inclined belt.

Fixed.

[Carthaginian]

Oh... why the two lonely 3" guns (not listed on the SS) on the quarterdeck?

[damocles]

Those don't exist exist. You  just think think they do.   :(  



Arnheim, Holland 1059 class laid down 1916

Displacement:
   30,218 t light; 32,146 t standard; 33,928 t normal; 35,354 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720.87 ft / 713.00 ft x 117.50 ft x 26.20 ft (normal load)
   219.72 m / 217.32 m x 35.81 m  x 7.99 m

Armament:
     8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 14,736 lbs / 6,684 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   463.85 ft / 141.38 m   12.99 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   463.85 ft / 141.38 m   23.88 ft / 7.28 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

  - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 107,975 shp / 80,549 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,208 tons

Complement:
   1,249 - 1,624

Cost:
   £5.184 million / $20.737 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,842 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 9,215 tons, 27.2 %
      - Belts: 2,650 tons, 7.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 807 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 1,313 tons, 3.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,223 tons, 12.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 222 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 4,023 tons, 11.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,638 tons, 43.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,710 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41,179 lbs / 18,678 Kg = 24.6 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 17.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 83 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.541
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.07 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 83
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.37 ft / 8.95 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Stern:      18.69 ft / 5.70 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.54 ft / 5.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 57,977 Square feet or 5,386 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 983 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.01
      - Longitudinal: 1.27
      - Overall: 1.03
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

500 tons
250 tons fire control
 25 tons radio
 25 radar
 25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes 4 x reloads
25 tons surplus.

All or nothing protection and inclined belt.

[Logi]

I still spot them at the side view! :D

[miketr]

While I agree its like Korpen's Frigate designs I never liked the thinness of the armor.  In particular the turrets and barbettes.  A good AP round form a 12"L50 could defeat that armor at up to 20K yards.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_12-50_mk7.htm

When you combine this with use of Quads the ship is at extreme risk of having its firepower knocked out in fight.

Over all I think its a step backwards from the De Ruyter Class.

Michael

[Nobody]

[...]
EDIT: Also, there is no 1917 engine year. It's either 1916 or 1920.

Arnheim, Holland 1059 class laid down 1915

Fixed.

Not quite. There is no 1915 engine tech either.

[damocles]

While I agree its like Korpen's Frigate designs I never liked the thinness of the armor.  In particular the turrets and barbettes.  A good AP round form a 12"L50 could defeat that armor at up to 20K yards.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_12-50_mk7.htm

When you combine this with use of Quads the ship is at extreme risk of having its firepower knocked out in fight.

Over all I think its a step backwards from the De Ruyter Class.

Michael

1. The torpedo defense is vastly improved. What was the naval lesson of the the Siam War that the KM learned I asked?  Torpedoes sink ships not guns-especially my ships.

2. What is the mission of the ship? I have a mission in mind. It is not to slug it out with enemy battleships. I can't do that. These are frigates, not linenschips. Plus I don't have that many slips for 240 meter ships  

3. That is against Class C plate at 0 degrees fired in proof using superheavyweight shell. Do you see many Nverse navies running around with APCBC shells yet?  

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_135-45_mk5.htm

KC-type Armor Penetration with 1,250 lbs. (567 kg) AP Shell
.
Range             Side Armor          Deck Armor           Striking Velocity
0 yards (0 m)    17.3" (439 mm)    -----                      2,700 fps (823 mps)
10,000 yards   12.2" (310 mm)                                1,900 fps (579 mps)
(9,144 m)                
.
KC-type Armor Penetration with 1,400 lbs. (635 kg) AP Shell
.
Range              Side Armor           Deck Armor             Striking Velocity
0 yards (0 m)      17.3" (439 mm)    -----                        2,500 fps (762 mps)
10,000 yards      12.5" (318 mm)   -----                        1,850 fps (564 mps)
(9,144 m)    

Notes:

1) Data in both tables is from "British Battleships of World War Two."
2) The penetration figures in these tables are for an uncapped AP shell striking the plate at 90 degrees, i.e., with the axis of the shell perpendicular to the face of the plate.  A capped shell would give about 10 to 20% improvement at low velocities and about 30 to 50% at high velocities.
3) Note that the muzzle velocity for the 1,250 lbs. (567 kg) APC shell in the upper table is much higher than that given in most references.  For that reason, I believe that these to be proofing values and not what would be achieved in service.

Translated into what I see from the data, proof shot is not not service performance. Its likely that I will have to deal with 330 and 305 mm guns, not 380mm and up just yet. Plus I will have 1920 engines I hope soon. These ships are still building.

So with shallow harbors, need for some speed, the four shot salvo for split fire scarce deck space, heavier anti-destroyer guns, and engines 1920 waiting, its a series of real design compromises.                  

[...]
EDIT: Also, there is no 1917 engine year. It's either 1916 or 1920.

Arnheim, Holland 1059 class laid down 1915

Fixed.

Not quite. There is no 1915 engine tech either.

Fourth time is the charm.