Re: Netherlands design study for 1921 program

[damocles]

That won't help you at all.

K class, Holland torpedohruizer D laid down 1921

Displacement:
   3,968 t light; 4,117 t standard; 4,604 t normal; 4,994 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   426.51 ft / 426.51 ft x 42.65 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   130.00 m / 130.00 m x 13.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      10 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (3 mounts), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, majority aft, 4 raised guns - superfiring
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 633 lbs / 287 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 45,339 shp / 33,823 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 877 tons

Complement:
   279 - 363

Cost:
   £1.079 million / $4.317 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 79 tons, 1.7 %
   Armour: 246 tons, 5.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 17 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 211 tons, 4.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,561 tons, 33.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,782 tons, 38.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 636 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 6.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,938 lbs / 1,333 Kg = 55.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Stern:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.42 ft / 4.70 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,603 Square feet or 1,078 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 403 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 2.25
      - Overall: 1.09
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Notes:

Misc. 350 tons.
150 tons fire control.
25 tons radar.
25 tons radio
25 tons acoustics
32 tons toirpedoes
43 tons for depth charges and mines.

=================================================

K class, Holland torpedokruizer D laid down 1921

Displacement:
   3,965 t light; 4,122 t standard; 4,662 t normal; 5,094 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   470.03 ft / 459.32 ft x 47.24 ft (Bulges 50.36 ft) x 16.40 ft (normal load)
   143.26 m / 140.00 m x 14.40 m (Bulges 15.35 m)  x 5.00 m

Armament:
     6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
     32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 724 lbs / 328 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   311.68 ft / 95.00 m   8.23 ft / 2.51 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

  - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 33,355 shp / 24,883 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 972 tons

Complement:
   281 - 366

Cost:
   £0.956 million / $3.824 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 91 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 423 tons, 9.1 %
      - Belts: 104 tons, 2.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 53 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 248 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,149 tons, 24.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,953 tons, 41.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 697 tons, 15.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 7.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,086 lbs / 2,307 Kg = 49.4 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.430
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (60 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Stern:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.42 ft / 4.70 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,627 Square feet or 1,266 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 423 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 1.05
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Notes:

Misc. 350 tons.
150 tons fire control.
25 tons radar.
25 tons radio
25 tons acoustics
32 tons toirpedoes
43 tons for depth charges and mines.

That should be legal.

[Sachmle]

10 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (3 mounts), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, majority aft, 4 raised guns - superfiring

Superfiring Quad with deck level triples?

[damocles]

K class, Holland torpedokruizer D laid down 1921

Displacement:
   4,000 t light; 4,150 t standard; 4,692 t normal; 5,126 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   470.03 ft / 459.32 ft x 47.24 ft (Bulges 50.36 ft) x 16.40 ft (normal load)
   143.26 m / 140.00 m x 14.40 m (Bulges 15.35 m)  x 5.00 m

Armament:
      10 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (5x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
      32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 633 lbs / 287 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   311.68 ft / 95.00 m   8.23 ft / 2.51 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 33,535 shp / 25,017 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 976 tons

Complement:
   283 - 368

Cost:
   £0.937 million / $3.749 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 79 tons, 1.7 %
   Armour: 433 tons, 9.2 %
      - Belts: 104 tons, 2.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 62 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 249 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,155 tons, 24.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,984 tons, 42.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 692 tons, 14.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 7.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,334 lbs / 2,419 Kg = 101.2 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.433
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (60 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Stern:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.42 ft / 4.70 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,655 Square feet or 1,269 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 428 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.07
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.11
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Notes:

Misc. 350 tons.
150 tons fire control.
25 tons radar.
25 tons radio
25 tons acoustics
32 tons torpedoes

=====================================

Keep plugging away at it. I haven't researched quad turrets so that would be illegal.

[ledeper]

 Ligth Cruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   6.117 t light; 6.318 t standard; 7.122 t normal; 7.765 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   512,00 ft / 508,53 ft x 49,21 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   156,06 m / 155,00 m x 15,00 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 687 lbs / 311 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   360,07 ft / 109,75 m   8,43 ft / 2,57 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   360,07 ft / 109,75 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,98" / 25 mm   0,98" / 25 mm      0,98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 56.025 shp / 41.794 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.447 tons

Complement:
   386 - 503

Cost:
   £1,367 million / $5,469 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 86 tons, 1,2 %
   Armour: 1.406 tons, 19,7 %
      - Belts: 723 tons, 10,1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 26 tons, 0,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 611 tons, 8,6 %
      - Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 2.087 tons, 29,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.288 tons, 32,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.005 tons, 14,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 3,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6.526 lbs / 2.960 Kg = 63,4 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 14,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,506
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15,78 ft / 4,81 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
      - Stern:      15,78 ft / 4,81 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,09 ft / 4,91 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 16.766 Square feet or 1.558 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 398 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,30
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Misc weight:
100 tns FC
30 tns Torp. 3 reloads
L/RW/L 25 tns
Mines D/C 90 tns

[Sachmle]

On something like this where speed is important I'd rather have a 50mm end belt then a 50mm upper belt to protect that speed. I'd also rather have better gun armor than CT armor(50/25/75 for the guns and 100 for the CT)

[TexanCowboy]

Only reason I would use a upper belt in that situation would be to protect the torpedoes if it was a torpedo cruiser. Also, that's not enought shells. I'd aim for 180-200.

Length to Beam needs to be cut down to 10:1.