Discussion of the Landmacht.

[damocles]

Here I will discuss the current thinking of the MVB (military central command) of the Landmacht (Rikswehr).

Much of the doctrine comes out of the conflicts with Siam and fighting the DKB, both episodes which showed that the NOI and Dutch infantry was brave but sorely in need for new training and new equipment.

One of the shockers was the machine gun. Not that the Landmacht was unaware, but the supposition was that such a weapon was best used in open terrain (Europe) and that it would be of limited effectiveness in the jungles of the NOI. Wrong. Whether attack or defense, the machine gun was found second only to artillery, as the great trupen killer in the Siam war. The machine gun was the defacto base of all land warfare tactics. How to use it, move it, support it, in attack and defense becomes an art of war in itself and is now the subject of much Landmacht tactical thinking.    

Another lesson was that artillery need not be the largest bore or the longest range, but it had to be very mobile and plentiful-especially in the jungles and forest of the NOI. Siege artillery was not likely to be in the Landmacht budget because of the budget-minded Landsraad. A common Dutch howitzer was about all the Landmacht could afford. Given that, then any heavy army artillery would be purchased from Holland's allies.

Equipment.

The Kingdom of the Netherlands is blessed with FABRIQUE NATIONAL- a very famous arms maker associated with a great North American gunsmith, John Moses Browning.....so the Landmacht's light equipment reflects this source of development



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Browning automatic pistols calibres 9 mm and 11.5 mm
Browning self-loading rifle calibre 7.92 mm.
Browning automatic shotgun bore 10.25 mm
Browning submachine pistols calibres 9 mm and 11.5 mm
Browning light machine gun calibre 7.92 mm
Browning heavy machine gun calibre 15 mm (identical action just larger size) 
       
FN is currently developing a short recoil action rifle and light machine gun          

As is customary with the Landmacht as the junior service in the Netherlands, the hallmark is on the SIMPLE. They don't have the money for the complex and the fancy like the New Swiss.  

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Simple = good!

Although I can't quite see the for two different pistol calibres.
If anything, 2nd line troops could be given a cheapo 7,35mm Browning (the sort that started WWI), while the guys who could actually be shooting pistols in combat (MG crews, etc.) could be given a 9mm or 11,43mm weapon.

I'm not sure if two MG calibres are needed either. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't be throwing rocks out of a glass house :) - as I myself have two :D
Here I can only say that the 6,5x52/4 round the 'Wehr uses is a nice killer up to 600 metres.
That's why I have the 11mm for longer range shooting.

[damocles]

Ahoj!
Simple = good!

Although I can't quite see the for two different pistol calibres.
If anything, 2nd line troops could be given a cheapo 7,35mm Browning (the sort that started WWI), while the guys who could actually be shooting pistols in combat (MG crews, etc.) could be given a 9mm or 11,43mm weapon.

Foreign sales. Some of the Americans like fat slow bullets for stopping power. I agree with you that the Stadt Politei and your average officer or logistics type could use the 7.35 mm pocket pistol. I sort of think I like the 9 mm for both the machine gunners and the combat officers as it is effective enough.

I'm not sure if two MG calibres are needed either. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't be throwing rocks out of a glass house :) - as I myself have two :D
Here I can only say that the 6,5x52/4 round the 'Wehr uses is a nice killer up to 600 metres.

The Marine (navy) buys the 15 mm machine guns for AAA work. The Army buys the same large machine gun for much the same exact reason, but won't hesitate to shoot up troops and vehicles with it either often out to 1500 meters against vehicles. The RCMG is effective out to about 800 meters (I know the book ranges say 1000 meters but who can see a man sized smudge on the ground crawling toward  you that far away)?

The SMG is an experiment to see if automatic weapons that a man can carry and shoot is effective in the close assault. Again the larger calibre is for the foreign market.

I'm surprised someone didn't say something about the shotgun. That is a terrifying weapon for trench clearing or street fighting. The weapon was almost banned after WW I because of its viciousness in CQB.    

That's why I have the 11mm for longer range shooting.

Good choice of calibre, large enough to stop most current era tanks and trucks with steel core bullets and it still gives you a machine gun light enough to two man carry.

D.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
We seem to have quite similar ideas.
However, think of the MG as artillery - these were used in pairs or fours, and had indirect fire sights. As late as in Normandy 1944 there were instances of firing MG barrages at several thousand metres.

I picked 11mm partly because it was a "historical" calibre for the Habsburgs.
http://www.sunblest.net/gun/Wern67.htm
Borys

[Borys]

Maybe this link will work better:
http://www.hungariae.com/

[damocles]

Maybe this link will work better:
http://www.hungariae.com/

Thank you for this! I know next to nothing about Austro-Hungarian weapons of the 19th Century. This does indeed explain much that puzzled me about the Osterreich armies of the period.

   

[ctwaterman]

I noticed the Old FN Browning association and was trying to steal it based on less than good relations between Dutch and CSA.

Basically the Italian 1915 Pattern Equipment includes copies of the Browning Automatic Rifle chambered for Italian Army Rifle calliber, the .30 Browning water cooled Machine Gun and the M2HB .50 Caliber Heavy Machine Gun.

[damocles]

I noticed the Old FN Browning association and was trying to steal it based on less than good relations between Dutch and CSA.

Well technically speaking in the Nverse its more likely that JMB will go to work for Remington which FN will subsume around 1905, so he would technically be a Norman working for the Dutch arms firm. He kept personal control of his patents, so while FN "owns" the rights to the BAR as does the "Norman" company Colt through a lease , I don't see why Baretta, Fiat, or Scotta would not do likewise. They did sub-license Browning's designs either through their arrangements with Vickers or from Browning, hiimself, in WW I.        

Just substitute a Remington lease arrangement for Vickers or claim that you paid him for the work.

Basically the Italian 1915 Pattern Equipment includes copies of the Browning Automatic Rifle chambered for Italian Army Rifle calliber, the .30 Browning water cooled Machine Gun and the M2HB .50 Caliber Heavy Machine Gun.

Pure History and a little tech.

1.  You are going to run into a technical problem with the BAR if you use historic 6.5 mm ammunition. There isn't enough gas pressure from that bullet to work the heavy bolt.

2. The Italian Browning BREDAs used a shorter cartridge for their .303s and .50s as these were aircraft weapons and were designed to be lighter recoil than normal. This doesn't mean that the 7.62 and 12.7,mm full size cartridge weapons are not in Italian service. It just means that the Browning short recoil action works for practically anything. It's why it is still in use today in some FN made machine guns.  

3. I don't see much of a problem with you using Browning designs or weapons here. They migrated everywhere in the OTL, Russia, Japan, Britain, Germany, Sweden, even Argentina either licensed or just stole his designs on the way to making their own versions of either gas operated or short recoil action weapons.

Just like so much of what Oto Melara and Baretta, did wound up in other people's ordnance, so did his.

The only reason I picked that line was because FN made them. Browning is going to be hired to make some Dutch fictional weapons based on his historic FN design work before he croaked in 1926. Now that work will of course be proprietary.  ;D    

 

   

[Walter]

Browning is going to be hired to make some Dutch fictional weapons based on his historic FN design work before he croaked in 1926.

Be sure to keep it away from the Swiss. If they like it, they'll steal it, copy it, reproduce it and use it against you in a war. :)

[damocles]

Well, there is that......

But seriously what do I have that they'd want (besides the NOI)? 

[Walter]

Oil? :)

[Desertfox]

As is customary with the Landmacht as the junior service in the Netherlands, the hallmark is on the SIMPLE. They don't have the money for the complex and the fancy like the New Swiss. 

Are you sure? Your standard rifle is semi-automatic and you have an automatic shotgun in your arsenal. If anything it's the Swiss who are going simple and cheap. The good thing is, when we go to war, it will be my rifles that will be reliable in all weather conditions...

[damocles]

Unlike your cheap knockoff copy crap, Foxy (Mondragons? seriously?) ,  my selected Browning weapons worked in all weathers under all conditions-especially the Browning automatic shotgun IN WAR.

:D

D.

[TexanCowboy]

Shotguns are illegal according to Genova in war.

[Walter]

As far as i can see in the treaties thread, it does not exist. I would assume the Vienna Convention on Conduct of War is the Navalism version of part of Geneva  (and if I am not mistaken, you're referrring to Article 4) but it does not appear that the Dutch have signed it so for the Dutch, it is not illegal for them to use it.