Discussion of the Landmacht.

[Guinness]

EDIT: Walter beat me to it...

I believe you mean the Treaty of Vienna, found here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=235.0, specifically provision 4:

4 - The use of Weapons designed to Maim, such as explosive bullets under 1,5 inch calibre, expanding bullets, etc. is banned;

As written, this leaves considerable room for interpretation. I suppose it could be argued that a shotgun is designed to maim. At any rate, it doesn't look to me that the Dutch ever signed it.

[damocles]

What he said.

[ctwaterman]

I noticed the Old FN Browning association and was trying to steal it based on less than good relations between Dutch and CSA.

Well technically speaking in the Nverse its more likely that JMB will go to work for Remington which FN will subsume around 1905, so he would technically be a Norman working for the Dutch arms firm. He kept personal control of his patents, so while FN "owns" the rights to the BAR as does the "Norman" company Colt through a lease , I don't see why Baretta, Fiat, or Scotta would not do likewise. They did sub-license Browning's designs either through their arrangements with Vickers or from Browning, hiimself, in WW I.        

Just substitute a Remington lease arrangement for Vickers or claim that you paid him for the work.

Basically the Italian 1915 Pattern Equipment includes copies of the Browning Automatic Rifle chambered for Italian Army Rifle calliber, the .30 Browning water cooled Machine Gun and the M2HB .50 Caliber Heavy Machine Gun.

Pure History and a little tech.

1.  You are going to run into a technical problem with the BAR if you use historic 6.5 mm ammunition. There isn't enough gas pressure from that bullet to work the heavy bolt.

2. The Italian Browning BREDAs used a shorter cartridge for their .303s and .50s as these were aircraft weapons and were designed to be lighter recoil than normal. This doesn't mean that the 7.62 and 12.7,mm full size cartridge weapons are not in Italian service. It just means that the Browning short recoil action works for practically anything. It's why it is still in use today in some FN made machine guns.  

3. I don't see much of a problem with you using Browning designs or weapons here. They migrated everywhere in the OTL, Russia, Japan, Britain, Germany, Sweden, even Argentina either licensed or just stole his designs on the way to making their own versions of either gas operated or short recoil action weapons.

Just like so much of what Oto Melara and Baretta, did wound up in other people's ordnance, so did his.

The only reason I picked that line was because FN made them. Browning is going to be hired to make some Dutch fictional weapons based on his historic FN design work before he croaked in 1926. Now that work will of course be proprietary.  ;D  

Thanks if the 6.5mm round lacks the power to do what we want with the Bar but the FN or Colt Version works with a larger Cartridge then the Empire will be addopting a Larger Cartridge.   Standardize is the key... Rifle, BAR, and Light Machine Guns might all go to a nice .308 round

[Borys]

Ahoj!
This thread made me look at what I'm using and got me thinking - maybe I should "lose" the M11 in 0,433 calibre, and stick to the 9x23 for my "serious" pistols? The "non-serious" pistols would remain 7,65 Mannlicher.
Borys

[Nobody]

I was wondering before but 9x23 mm seem like an awfully powerful caliber to me. Why? Because the standard is 9x19 mm (9 mm Parabellum/Para/Luger) and I have repeatedly read that larger 9x20 and 9x21 were considered "too powerful", especially in the long term.

[miketr]

My attitude on the use of all semi-automatic weapons is that its pure player hindsight.  A workable semi-automatic rifle is possible from 1900 on but it wasn't till the 1930's that they were built in real numbers for a number of reasons.  If you want to be silly and say you have semi-automatic weapons and later assault weapons thats fine.  Just remember that its all flavor text and there is no combat difference between your 19XX units and anyone elses 19XX units of the same generation if their flavor text calls for bolt action weapons.

Michael

[damocles]

I was wondering before but 9x23 mm seem like an awfully powerful caliber to me. Why? Because the standard is 9x19 mm (9 mm Parabellum/Para/Luger) and I have repeatedly read that larger 9x20 and 9x21 were considered "too powerful", especially in the long term.

It could be. Its what the Czechs started with as a bullet  for their ZK 383 before they stepped down to the parabellum-something which I think was a mistake in hindsight. 

My attitude on the use of all semi-automatic weapons is that its pure player hindsight.  A workable semi-automatic rifle is possible from 1900 on but it wasn't till the 1930's that they were built in real numbers for a number of reasons.  If you want to be silly and say you have semi-automatic weapons and later assault weapons thats fine.  Just remember that its all flavor text and there is no combat difference between your 19XX units and anyone elses 19XX units of the same generation if their flavor text calls for bolt action weapons.

Michael

The difference is tactics and firepower volume.  A 1915 infantry army gets most of its direct fire power out of continuous fire machine guns. The rifle just adds flavor. Won't see the difference at all until sturmtrupen tactics take general hold. That is a way off yet. And Mexico was headed to semi-automatics early. Don't see why the tardy US example is the reason for saying that its silly to try in 1920.

Assault rifle is out. Major Hind isn't smart enough to see the intermediate cartridge as an advantage. He's still trying to figure out the machine pistool.

Ahoj!
This thread made me look at what I'm using and got me thinking - maybe I should "lose" the M11 in 0,433 calibre, and stick to the 9x23 for my "serious" pistols? The "non-serious" pistols would remain 7,65 Mannlicher.
Borys

The 9x23 as remarked above is a hot round. Just because I'm going to stick with that to give my Dutch weapons (the SMG needs the range it gives, but it will make the pistol almost impossible to use as designed since the bullet is a driller  that leaves holes and doesn't stop in the man at close range like it is supposed too) a flavor for story, you don't have to follow my lead.

D. 

   

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Maybe the
1912 Steyer:
http://www.hungariae.com/Stey12.htm

could be married to such a stock?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Mauser_C96_M1916_Red_9_7.JPG

Also, the use of the 9x23 gives me excellent submachineguns some 20 years down the line :)
With the 9mm Steyr why use the 9mm Mauser (9x25)?
http://www.hungariae.com/Danu39.htm

As to the driller vs. man stopper - the Habsburgs could claim to have similar experience as OTL US - but with Anahuac fanatics in Brasil. So I could claim "combat experience" calling for slow 11mm bullets - had it not been for a certain wee thing ... I introduced the 0,433mm pistol round BEFORE the Brasilian Crusade :D
Still, I think hope that a 9mm Steyer pistol-carabine would make sense.
Finally, I'd get to use an OTL Austrian round :)

I'll sleep it over and modify (or not) my encyclopaedia entries tommorrow.
Borys

[miketr]

My attitude on the use of all semi-automatic weapons is that its pure player hindsight.  A workable semi-automatic rifle is possible from 1900 on but it wasn't till the 1930's that they were built in real numbers for a number of reasons.  If you want to be silly and say you have semi-automatic weapons and later assault weapons thats fine.  Just remember that its all flavor text and there is no combat difference between your 19XX units and anyone elses 19XX units of the same generation if their flavor text calls for bolt action weapons.

Michael

The difference is tactics and firepower volume.  A 1915 infantry army gets most of its direct fire power out of continuous fire machine guns. The rifle just adds flavor. Won't see the difference at all until sturmtrupen tactics take general hold. That is a way off yet. And Mexico was headed to semi-automatics early. Don't see why the tardy US example is the reason for saying that its silly to try in 1920.

Assault rifle is out. Major Hind isn't smart enough to see the intermediate cartridge as an advantage. He's still trying to figure out the machine pistool.

I am aware my point is that the key factor in the game is our infantry tech level not our flavor text.

This book is a good overview on the evolution of infantry tactics in this time period.

On Infantry
http://www.amazon.com/Infantry-John-English/dp/0275949729/

This is also a good read for WW1
Stormtroop Tactics: Innovation in the German Army, 1914-1918
http://www.amazon.com/Stormtroop-Tactics-Innovation-German-1914-1918/dp/0275954013/

Michael

[Guinness]

I don't think serviceable semi-automatic rifles deployed to the field in limited numbers are out of the question in our 1925 infantry techs. I also don't think it's reasonable to expect every infantryman in a corps to be equipped with them until the 1935 tech. It's possible that certain nations may have begun experimenting with such things with the 1915 tech, but I expect such weapons to be expensive and not terribly reliable yet. Still I suppose a few specialists might field them.

One factor we'll see with much higher theoretical rates of fire is a straining of logistics. This was true even of our 1915 tech with the reliance on crew served and often water cooled machine guns, and will be even more true later. Just because one can develop a weapon like these doesn't mean an entire corps of them can be easily deployed.

[damocles]

You are suggesting to me to hunt for a bolt action rifle aren't you? 

[Walter]

I was wondering before but 9x23 mm seem like an awfully powerful caliber to me.

Reading this does not make me feel guilty about using the .44. :D

[Guinness]

You are suggesting to me to hunt for a bolt action rifle aren't you?  

Quite gently, yes. :)

For what it's worth, I expect the Ottomans are mostly fielding the tried and true Mauser M98, unless the Dutch developed something interesting for their 6/3 infantry, in which case the Ottomans might be switching...

The Mughals: dunno. Almost certainly something indigenous.

[Walter]

The Mughals: dunno. Almost certainly something indigenous.

I can see them with smoothbore muskets riding on the backs of Camels. ;D

[Walter]

You are suggesting to me to hunt for a bolt action rifle aren't you?  

Quite gently, yes. :)

Looking around in the Dutch Army thread, I noticed that the Dutch army uses the 7mm  Mauser Model 89 rifle. Not sure exactly at what point in time Korpen posted that, but if the Dutch uses a bolt action rifle, it would no doubt be something similar to the M98.