Re: Netherlands design study for 1921 program

[TexanCowboy]

I doubt torpedoes are a good idea on such a large ship. For example, the Furutaka blew up because of a hit to it's torpedo tubes. On such a large ship, you have the risk of even just a 5-6'' HE shell blowing up the torpedoes, and really screwing up the deck and the machinery.

Also, on the light cruiser, put two guns raised aft, as you're trying to simulate a double mount raised.

[Sachmle]

Texan: Did you read your own link?

At 2354, Furutaka was hit by a torpedo that flooded her forward engine room. During the battle, about 90 shells hit Furutaka and some ignited her Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes, starting fires.

On 12 October 1942, at 0228, Furutaka sank stern first

Not exactly

blew up because of a hit to it's torpedo tubes.

[damocles]

Furataka's torpedoes caught fire. They did not explode. The reason she sank was because the American cruisers used the fires as an aim point to Swiss cheese her hull at Cape Esperance.

Torpedoes have their down side, but if you know what you are doing, those fish should be swimming toward an enemy line before he even knows you are there, and your tubes will be empty when he obtains a gunfire track solution on you. Even if only one in ten hits, its better to have those hull crushers available instead of trying to do everything with guns-especially when you are seriously outgunned.    
Ardan, Holland torpedokruizer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   3,979 t light; 4,128 t standard; 4,583 t normal; 4,947 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387.75 ft / 382.55 ft x 39.37 ft (Bulges 45.93 ft) x 18.08 ft (normal load)
   118.19 m / 116.60 m x 12.00 m (Bulges 14.00 m)  x 5.51 m

Armament:
      6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 671 lbs / 304 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   362.37 ft / 110.45 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 146 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 0.39" / 10 mm, Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 50,593 shp / 37,743 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 8,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 819 tons

Complement:
   278 - 362

Cost:
   £1.080 million / $4.319 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 232 tons, 5.1 %
      - Belts: 138 tons, 3.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 15 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 73 tons, 1.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,765 tons, 38.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,628 tons, 35.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 604 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 270 tons, 5.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,369 lbs / 1,075 Kg = 23.0 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 15.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.27 ft / 5.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 145.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 50.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,081 Square feet or 937 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 370 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.20
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

270 tons
1912 Fire controi   100 tons
1918 torpedoes      36 tons
1915 radar              25 tons
ASW gear.               25 tons
Radio.                      25 tons
Misc.                        49 tons 

She can still throw depth charges or lay mines or I can fit her with 1918 fire control.

Shrug. Its a part of a theme where the ships meet my doctrine that is more or less be effective.   

D.          

[Desertfox]

Unless you get caught during the day at a range where the enemy can just pound you without fear...

[damocles]

Unless you get caught during the day at a range where the enemy can just pound you without fear...

That is what the radar is for. How many daylight surface gun actions were there in the RTL in the Pacific in the 20th Century?

Five? The guys with the torpedoes won three of them. The rest were night actions (about two dozen) and almost without exception, (the exception was 2nd Guadalcanal) I think   the side that got their fish off first almost always won.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I believe that for the purpose of using slips and docks it is overall length which counts, not waterline length.

Borys

[damocles]

J-class (Improved I class., Holland  torpedojager laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,581 t standard; 1,868 t normal; 2,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 33.46 ft x 12.14 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 10.20 m  x 3.70 m

Armament:
     10 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (5x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 529 lbs / 240 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.04" / 1 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 25,514 shp / 19,034 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 516 tons

Complement:
   141 - 184

Cost:
   £0.507 million / $2.027 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 66 tons, 3.5 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 760 tons, 40.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 573 tons, 30.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 368 tons, 19.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 5.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     565 lbs / 256 Kg = 10.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.98
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.409
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Mid (40 %):      17.22 ft / 5.25 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.14 ft / 4.31 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,153 Square feet or 757 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

100 tons   available                  
1915 radar                25 tons
1918 torpedoes      24 tons
ASW gear.             25 tons      
Misc.                    26 tons  

Note that 26 tons is available for upgrade path or for depth charges and mines.

[Jefgte]

Slow with just 30kts, but powerful armament...

This is a French Contre-Torpilleur


Jef

[damocles]

And here is the 1500 ton K-class.

K-class (Improved I class., Holland  torpedojager laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,590 t standard; 1,877 t normal; 2,107 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 33.46 ft x 12.14 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 10.20 m  x 3.70 m

Armament:
     6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
     16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 620 lbs / 281 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.04" / 1 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 25,618 shp / 19,111 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 517 tons

Complement:
   142 - 185

Cost:
   £0.526 million / $2.102 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 77 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 749 tons, 39.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 584 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 377 tons, 20.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 4.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     545 lbs / 247 Kg = 5.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.411
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (27 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m (12.47 ft / 3.80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   12.47 ft / 3.80 m
      - Stern:      12.47 ft / 3.80 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.22 ft / 4.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,163 Square feet or 758 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 75 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 188 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.13
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

90 tons   available                  
1915 radar                25 tons
1918 torpedoes      24 tons
ASW gear.              25 tons      
Misc.                      16 tons

That would presumably fit my design intentions for a heavy escort.    

[maddox]

I'm afraid the 1mm gun armor is equal to a car body. Dented by hail, ripped to pieces in any kind of heavy sea. And if mounted on an harbor queen, rusted trough in a year.

[Valles]

The Maori, who design their gun mounts as full enclosures as protection against the storms of the Antarctic Sea, use 10mm plate for the entire gunhouse.

[TexanCowboy]

Radar, at this time period? *laughs hysterically*

The only thing that the radar at out point in the timeline is good for is naviagating with a battlefleet, or similar, not for detecting enemy ships at long range.

[Jefgte]

3T2x150+8x533TT - 30kts is a very interresting concept...

Correct the gun armor . 1mm is NOT an armor

0.25" or 6.35mm is the ABSOLUTE minimum.


Jef

[Sachmle]

Both are overgunned, so very Dutch. Both have too much range and not enough speed. The J class only has 40% of it's weight as machinery, something >=50% is more realistic for DDs in this time frame. You can trim up the K class as it has excess stability but only a 60% steadiness. With all that firepower having the 70%/Steady gun platform rating would be useful. IMHO I'd cut range to ~4,500 @ 12nm and put the extra weight into more speed. You have enough seakeeping on both to get away with it, too much really if you read Guinness' post on RL DD seakeeping.

[TexanCowboy]

End-on Fire warning, anyone?