Re: Netherlands design study for 1921 program

damocles · May 26, 2010, 04:41:16 AM

RFS Flevoland, Holland panzeschip laid down 1920 (Engine 1913)

Displacement:
   32,599 t light; 34,773 t standard; 37,827 t normal; 40,271 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   687.87 ft / 672.57 ft x 91.86 ft (Bulges 104.99 ft) x 29.53 ft (normal load)
   209.66 m / 205.00 m x 28.00 m (Bulges 32.00 m) x 9.00 m

Armament:
9 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (6x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 16,714 lbs / 7,581 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm     59.06 ft / 18.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     154.20 ft / 47.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.17" / 55 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   8.07" / 205 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   6.10" / 155 mm   4.13" / 105 mm      6.10" / 155 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm

- Armour deck: 6.00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 65,700 shp / 49,013 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,498 tons

Complement:
   1,356 - 1,763

Cost:
   £7.697 million / $30.788 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,089 tons, 5.5 %
   Armour: 12,858 tons, 34.0 %
     - Belts: 3,278 tons, 8.7 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 604 tons, 1.6 %
     - Armament: 3,502 tons, 9.3 %
     - Armour Deck: 5,182 tons, 13.7 %
     - Conning Tower: 291 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,574 tons, 6.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,578 tons, 38.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,228 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     56,659 lbs / 25,700 Kg = 33.8 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 8.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 19.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.635
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.41 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.93 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      32.81 ft / 10.00 m
     - Forecastle (15 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
     - Mid (50 %):      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
     - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
     - Average freeboard:   26.20 ft / 7.99 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,682 Square feet or 4,337 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 993 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.73
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ship fitted for 1915 radar.*
Ship fitted for 1912 fire control*
Ship fitted for 1913/1918 torpedoes*
Ship fitted for 1910 AAA guns which are foreign purchase by buyer.*
Ship has space allocated for seaplane operations*

*The item either must be supplied by purchaser, or will be supplied in postfit as soon as Dutch equivalent tech is available.

**Revised per customer request.

damocles · May 26, 2010, 05:27:11 AM

Holland, Jakarta Panzerschip II class laid down 1920 (Engine 1913)

Displacement:
   27,265 t light; 28,449 t standard; 32,130 t normal; 35,075 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   609.81 ft / 600.00 ft x 70.00 ft (Bulges 90.00 ft) x 35.00 ft (normal load)
   185.87 m / 182.88 m x 21.34 m (Bulges 27.43 m) x 10.67 m

Armament:
9 - 10.04" / 255 mm guns (3x3 guns), 505.93lbs / 229.49kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (6x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,199 lbs / 2,812 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   442.91 ft / 135.00 m   10.04 ft / 3.06 m
   Ends:   2.17" / 55 mm   147.64 ft / 45.00 m   10.04 ft / 3.06 m
     9.45 ft / 2.88 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      3.94" / 100 mm   292.49 ft / 89.15 m   33.07 ft / 10.08 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   6.10" / 155 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   4.13" / 105 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   3rd:   0.04" / 1 mm   0.04" / 1 mm      0.04" / 1 mm

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 10.04" / 255 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 147,594 shp / 110,105 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,627 tons

Complement:
   1,199 - 1,559

Cost:
   £5.708 million / $22.832 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 775 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 9,263 tons, 28.8 %
     - Belts: 1,971 tons, 6.1 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,409 tons, 4.4 %
     - Armament: 3,437 tons, 10.7 %
     - Armour Deck: 2,227 tons, 6.9 %
     - Conning Tower: 219 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 5,783 tons, 18.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,944 tons, 34.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,865 tons, 15.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37,077 lbs / 16,818 Kg = 73.3 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.99
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 22.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.595
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -15.00 ft / -4.57 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      26.94 ft / 8.21 m
     - Forecastle (18 %):   38.00 ft / 11.58 m
     - Mid (50 %):      35.00 ft / 10.67 m
     - Quarterdeck (18 %):   27.00 ft / 8.23 m
     - Stern:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
     - Average freeboard:   32.36 ft / 9.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,575 Square feet or 2,840 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 786 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 3.77
      - Overall: 1.00
   Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ship fitted for 1915 radar.*
Ship fitted for 1912 fire control*
Ship fitted for 1913/1918 torpedoes*
Ship fitted for 1910 AAA guns which are foreign purchase by buyer.*
Ship has space allocated for seaplane operations*

*The item either must be supplied by purchaser, or will be supplied in postfit as soon as Dutch equivalent tech is available.

**Revised per customer request.

Guinness · May 26, 2010, 06:15:33 AM

Question: are the weapons on this ship currently in Dutch inventory? For instance, I'm fairly certain that the Dutch have a 150mmL45 gun, but I don't know about a 155mm.

damocles · May 26, 2010, 06:47:37 AM

1915 naval gun research was just completed. As a result I intend to introduce calibers standardized for future fregatte III, II, and I classes that use these projected calibres.

25 mm
55 mm
75 mm
105 mm
120 mm
155 mm
255 mm
380 mm
and a 405 mm (in the future).

Expect those barrel calibres as part of the Rikswehr as well.

For the nonce, we can stipulate a 5.9 inch mount for anything built prior to 1920.

damocles · May 26, 2010, 07:07:57 AM

RFS Hoen, Holland Torpedokruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1913)

Displacement:
   14,487 t light; 14,955 t standard; 16,471 t normal; 17,683 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   574.57 ft / 557.74 ft x 49.21 ft (Bulges 61.02 ft) x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   175.13 m / 170.00 m x 15.00 m (Bulges 18.60 m) x 8.75 m

Armament:
10 - 6.10" / 155 mm guns (5x2 guns), 113.62lbs / 51.54kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 1,560 lbs / 708 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.13" / 105 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.17" / 55 mm   508.53 ft / 155.00 m   24.61 ft / 7.50 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   2.17" / 55 mm      4.13" / 105 mm
   2nd:     -        -         0.98" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 4.13" / 105 mm, Conning tower: 6.10" / 155 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 95,606 shp / 71,322 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,729 tons

Complement:
   726 - 945

Cost:
   £2.825 million / $11.301 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 195 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 4,534 tons, 27.5 %
     - Belts: 1,416 tons, 8.6 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,003 tons, 6.1 %
     - Armament: 509 tons, 3.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,521 tons, 9.2 %
     - Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,746 tons, 22.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,662 tons, 34.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,984 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,483 lbs / 8,837 Kg = 171.5 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 19.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.88
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      36.09 ft / 11.00 m
     - Forecastle (18 %):   32.81 ft / 10.00 m
     - Mid (50 %):      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
     - Quarterdeck (18 %):   26.25 ft / 8.00 m
     - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
     - Average freeboard:   29.47 ft / 8.98 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 144.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,888 Square feet or 1,848 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 490 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.83
      - Longitudinal: 5.35
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ship fitted for 1915 radar.*
Ship fitted for 1912 fire control*
Ship fitted for 1913/1918 torpedoes*
Ship fitted for 1910 AAA guns which are foreign purchase by buyer.*
Guns are part of the 1915 program to be introduced into fleet service with new construction.

Guinness · May 26, 2010, 08:53:35 AM

Whoo, that's a lot of guns to develop. How many already are?

damocles · May 26, 2010, 09:01:11 AM

Well that depends on what I have to do with the tech revamp. I was just told I am researching stuff that Korpen already researched. So I have to SCRAP the 1916 to 1919 research once I get the complete list from him via e-mail.

After that, I probably introduce the two new medium caliber guns (12.5 and 15.5) and update the existing 38 cm by year.

P3D · May 26, 2010, 10:12:54 AM

The 24kts Panzership would be a bad choice. The Netherlands has neither battleline, nor the capacity to build one.
Take a note that your engine year should be 1916 not 1913. It might explain why the 10" Panzerschiff is a waste of BP compared to the 30000t (29kts, 8x15") frigates in service.

Desertfox · May 26, 2010, 04:40:14 PM

New Switzerland has absolutely no problem with the Netherlands spending so much money on new guns despite having the following already in service: 70mm, 88mm, 100mm, 150mm, 240mm, and 305mm. Their logistics are going to be in shambles by the time the 4th Pacific War comes around...

Sachmle · May 26, 2010, 07:26:10 PM

Quote from: damocles on May 26, 2010, 09:01:11 AM
Well that depends on what I have to do with the tech revamp. I was just told I am researching stuff that Korpen already researched. So I have to SCRAP the 1916 to 1919 research once I get the complete list from him via e-mail.

After that, I probably introduce the two new medium caliber guns (12.5 and 15.5) and update the existing 38 cm by year.

Best way to not re-research something is to go to the Technology section of the Dutch encyclopedia and see what they had at the end of 1916. Then look at pre-existing sim reports and see what was under research and how far along it was.

damocles · May 28, 2010, 04:24:33 AM

RFS Ezean, Holland torpedokruizer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   6,422 t light; 6,680 t standard; 7,308 t normal; 7,811 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   572.59 ft / 560.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 14.50 ft (normal load)
   174.53 m / 170.69 m x 15.24 m x 4.42 m

Armament:
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 1,274 lbs / 578 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   558.00 ft / 170.08 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 153 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   555.00 ft / 169.16 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 43,742 shp / 32,632 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,131 tons

Complement:
   394 - 513

Cost:
   £1.354 million / $5.414 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 159 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 1,196 tons, 16.4 %
     - Belts: 301 tons, 4.1 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 277 tons, 3.8 %
     - Armament: 204 tons, 2.8 %
     - Armour Deck: 390 tons, 5.3 %
     - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,529 tons, 20.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,088 tons, 42.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 886 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 6.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,951 lbs / 4,967 Kg = 106.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.68

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.630
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.20 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
     - Forecastle (25 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
     - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Quarterdeck (25 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Average freeboard:   20.63 ft / 6.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 153.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,058 Square feet or 1,956 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 416 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

500 toms misc.
1912 fire control
1915 radar
Radio
1913/1918 torpedoes.
ASW gear

Notes:

I wanted a cruiser that could serve as an escort. Criticisms welcome

TexanCowboy · May 28, 2010, 06:33:46 AM

Much too slow. Torpedo Bulkheads are a bad idea usually on anything less than 75-80 feet of beams. Remove that and use the weight gained for speed. Also, the radar on such a small ship is a tad bit hindsight.

damocles · May 28, 2010, 06:59:11 AM

RFS Ezean, Holland torpedokruizer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   6,405 t light; 6,680 t standard; 7,308 t normal; 7,811 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   572.59 ft / 560.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 14.50 ft (normal load)
   174.53 m / 170.69 m x 15.24 m x 4.42 m

Armament:
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
    Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
    on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1920 Model
    Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
    on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 1,480 lbs / 671 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   371.00 ft / 113.08 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
    Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
    Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 50,273 shp / 37,504 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,131 tons

Complement:
   394 - 513

Cost:
   £1.479 million / $5.915 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 185 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 869 tons, 11.9 %
    - Belts: 214 tons, 2.9 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
    - Armament: 241 tons, 3.3 %
    - Armour Deck: 390 tons, 5.3 %
    - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,758 tons, 24.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,143 tons, 43.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 903 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 6.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    9,149 lbs / 4,150 Kg = 88.8 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.57

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.630
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.20 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
    - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
    - Forecastle (25 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
    - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
    - Quarterdeck (25 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
    - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
    - Average freeboard:   20.63 ft / 6.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,058 Square feet or 1,956 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 424 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.64
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

500 toms misc.
1912 fire control
1915 radar
Radio
1913/1918 torpedoes.
ASW gear

I gain two guns and a knot. Speed isn't something that is that useful above 28 knots. Turn radius and a torpedo defense is. Radar gives warning at this point and is useful for night navigation. If I could use it to lay optical gunfire or at least compute a vector track, why not fit for radar? Upgrade path.

Guinness · May 28, 2010, 07:43:11 AM

There are lots of 28 or 29 knot cruisers afloat now and at least a few good for more than 31 even 32, although those clearly outclass this.

I'll grant that the Dutch have next to no experience designing light cruisers, so it figures that their first modern effort would be... quirky. Beside speed though, I think this ship has a major flaw: the main belt is too short. A 7 foot belt would mean only 3.5 feet above the waterline. It also means it protects only 3.5 feet below the waterline. At top speed (as on a run to deploy her torpedoes), I believe a large portion of her hull below the belt would be exposed, meaning she'd be quite vulnerable to even relatively light caliber guns holing her.

Also, do note the "main belt does not fully cover magazines, etc." error.

Historically, the Dutch have used overgrown, relatively slow destroyers as unarmored proxy light cruisers, and dare I say fairly successfully. One of the lessons they should have learned from the last pacific war was that they still need at least some light cruisers. I'm thinking specifically of the battle of Banda Sea here, where even a not terribly well coordinated mass torpedo attack succeeded in heavily damaging one of the Dutch frigates.

I think for the Dutch given their battle history it would make sense to them to try to scale up something like the H or I class DDs into something light cruiser like. It likely would have less armor than it's contemporaries, but be quite a bit faster. Maybe something with 6 or 8 150mm guns, a 50 or 60mm belt (at most), a 25mm deck, and at least 31 knots.

Finally, I'd recommend figuring range at a standard speed for your ships. I believe Korpen used 12 knots. This will make it easier for you to figure out cruise distances later.

damocles · May 28, 2010, 04:04:14 PM

RFS Talman, Holland torpedokruizer laid down 1921 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   6,674 t light; 6,936 t standard; 7,552 t normal; 8,044 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   601.26 ft / 590.55 ft x 45.93 ft x 17.72 ft (normal load)
   183.26 m / 180.00 m x 14.00 m x 5.40 m

Armament:
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 1,274 lbs / 578 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      2.95" / 75 mm

- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 54,336 shp / 40,534 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,108 tons

Complement:
   404 - 526

Cost:
   £1.612 million / $6.448 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 159 tons, 2.1 %
   Armour: 1,434 tons, 19.0 %
     - Belts: 310 tons, 4.1 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 470 tons, 6.2 %
     - Armament: 276 tons, 3.7 %
     - Armour Deck: 345 tons, 4.6 %
     - Conning Tower: 33 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,900 tons, 25.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,881 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 878 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 4.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,292 lbs / 3,761 Kg = 80.5 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
     - Forecastle (18 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
     - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     - Quarterdeck (18 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Average freeboard:   17.04 ft / 5.20 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,930 Square feet or 1,759 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 426 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 1.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

400 tons misc.
Fitted for 1912 fire control.
Fitted for 1915 radar.
Fitted for 1918 torpedoes.
Fitted for radio.

====================================

Okay, no matter what I try, I get an armor length recommended that exceeds hull length, and when I try to either adjust the hull or the armor I get the armor does not cover machinery and guns error message. How do I fix that?