Generic battleship?

[Marek Gutkowski]

What will pass as a generic battleship in around here?
In 1920 I'm planing to build 2 BB's
problem is I have no idea how will they look like.

What will be big enough
fast enough
and armed enough(goes with out saying it will be armored to survive its own shells).

[Carthaginian]

Right now?
About 24 knots minimum, about 6000 n. mi. @ 14 knots, and roughly 8x15" guns.
If you want a 'fast' battleship, make it big and run the speed up to about 28 knots.

[maddox]

The French BB's are divided up in several groups.

the "BB's"  ,  around 25Ktons,  8 380mm guns   22 kts 6000Nm@16 kts  140mm secundaries.
These BB's are the mainstay, and rebuilds of older -less able BB's or Semi BB's will be up to that standard.

the GBB's   30- 35 Ktons, 22 kts 8-12  380mm main guns.

The 2 Montmedies 8  380mm guns, 28.5 kts, range 9000nm@16 kts.

[Jefgte]

Actualy in NUS Shipyards

BB Paraguay & BB Bolivia

25260t - 4T3x343 +18x152 - B340 - 8500nm@12kts - 22kts


Jef

[Marek Gutkowski]

380mm on 24000t?

something like this?

Ukrainka, Ukraine Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   23,412 t light; 25,359 t standard; 27,088 t normal; 28,471 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 91.86 ft x 30.84 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 28.00 m  x 9.40 m

Armament:
      9 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 16,587 lbs / 7,524 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   356.96 ft / 108.80 m   11.52 ft / 3.51 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.36" / 60 mm   356.96 ft / 108.80 m   29.07 ft / 8.86 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm         -         13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   3.15" / 80 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 5.98" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 33,324 shp / 24,860 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,112 tons

Complement:
   1,055 - 1,372

Cost:
   £6.439 million / $25.755 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,073 tons, 7.7 %
   Armour: 9,842 tons, 36.3 %
      - Belts: 2,289 tons, 8.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 907 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armament: 2,421 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,149 tons, 15.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,165 tons, 4.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,731 tons, 35.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,676 tons, 13.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32,120 lbs / 14,569 Kg = 19.2 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.07 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 37
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.98 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (16 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.17 ft / 5.23 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,473 Square feet or 3,481 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 913 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.73
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Your main problem is the lack of domestic gun and turret, so first you'll have to develop them from license. but at least you'd have a broad selection to choose from.

[Marek Gutkowski]

Your main problem is the lack of domestic gun and turret, so first you'll have to develop them from license. but at least you'd have a broad selection to choose from.

? I have quad turrets and 380mm in my tech tree?

Am I missing something again?

[TexanCowboy]

Yes. You have to develop the guns after you have the tech. That would take two years, as each gun is $.5 for 4 halves.

Also. The largest guns we have on the Black, with the exception of the old Romanian BB, which is retiring in a year, is 12''. All four of your battleships, and your supercruisers, have 12'' guns. I would say it's probebly a good idea to stay there. Perhaps a 16x12'' ship?

[P3D]

I doubt you'd want to spend two years on gun/mount development so the suggestion for license build.

About your design:
9 guns in 4 turrets is a bit odd and would require some extra research. Armor is adequate against 12" but what happens if, say, Austria sends battleships through the Bosporus in a war with Ukraine.

Both the Russian and the Ottoman fleets are going "asymmetric" i.e. relying on littoral defense with mines, torpedo boats and destroyers. So I won't waste money on slow battleships.

[TexanCowboy]

Romania is going the other direction, getting two battleships in three years.  ;D

[Marek Gutkowski]

16 gun ship?
I rather have two 8 gun ship.
I tend to avoid putting more then 8-9 guns on a ship.
I consider 12 as the maximum.

305mm gun is to small for my taste. If there was no ships sporting 15'' Id never increase the bore. 356mm(14'') maybe a way to go.

With this new guns being expensive I may try this.

Zapororzec, Ukraina Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   18,094 t light; 19,309 t standard; 20,755 t normal; 21,912 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 82.02 ft x 28.87 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 25.00 m  x 8.80 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9,310 lbs / 4,223 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   301.18 ft / 91.80 m   10.86 ft / 3.31 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.36" / 60 mm   301.18 ft / 91.80 m   26.51 ft / 8.08 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   6.30" / 160 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   3.15" / 80 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.15" / 80 mm

   - Armour deck: 5.98" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 27,592 shp / 20,584 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,604 tons

Complement:
   863 - 1,123

Cost:
   £4.127 million / $16.507 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,164 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 7,893 tons, 38.0 %
      - Belts: 1,746 tons, 8.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 698 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armament: 1,851 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,534 tons, 17.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 965 tons, 4.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,493 tons, 36.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,660 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 580 tons, 2.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,435 lbs / 13,805 Kg = 35.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.98 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (23 %):   16.54 ft / 5.04 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.54 ft / 5.04 m
      - Quarterdeck (23 %):   16.54 ft / 5.04 m
      - Stern:      16.54 ft / 5.04 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.40 ft / 5.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,926 Square feet or 2,966 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 789 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Still I'm content with what I have, however new ships will be build to avoid block obsoletes .

I edited that too 3x3.
Well TB and minesweepers/layers will be build.

I'm not a fan of speed. It use full for offensive operation.
Its part of a doctrine I'm implementing. I have no oversea interest.
My fleet is coast defense force.
So If my fleet is running from some one then the war is going badly.
If its chasing some one then we won. Now time to lick my wounds.
Dictating range is also not needed if your guns have have similar capabilities that your enemy.     

[TexanCowboy]

What? You don't want speed? You have the most modern battlecruiser in WW....

[maddox]

Romania has 1 battleship.

French cannon foundries are pestering your marine department with offers for 2 single 340mm gun turrets to replace the 2 side 275mm twins turrets...

Danton , French Battleship laid down 1898  Refit 1912-1913

Displacement:
   14.592 t light; 15.365 t standard; 17.134 t normal; 18.550 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   449,48 ft / 442,91 ft x 82,02 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
   137,00 m / 135,00 m x 25,00 m  x 8,40 m

Armament:
      4 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x2 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7.461 lbs / 3.384 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   270,00 ft / 82,30 m   10,65 ft / 3,25 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   172,30 ft / 52,52 m   10,65 ft / 3,25 m
     0,61 ft / 0,19 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   287,89 ft / 87,75 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13.551 ihp / 10.109 Kw = 17,50 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.185 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   748 - 973

Cost:
   £1,600 million / $6,400 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 933 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 5.184 tons, 30,3%
      - Belts: 2.380 tons, 13,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.650 tons, 9,6%
      - Armour Deck: 982 tons, 5,7%
      - Conning Tower: 172 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 2.186 tons, 12,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.890 tons, 34,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.542 tons, 14,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16.854 lbs / 7.645 Kg = 14,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 4,5 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,599
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,33 ft / 7,11 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   14,90 ft / 4,54 m
      - Mid (50%):      14,90 ft / 4,54 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   14,90 ft / 4,54 m (15,06 ft / 4,59 m before break)
      - Stern:      14,90 ft / 4,54 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,60 ft / 4,75 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,0%
   Waterplane Area: 26.545 Square feet or 2.466 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 777 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 2,07
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Refitted Danton class.  Removed  casemate guns and the weight is used:
250 tons FC,
25  tons large marconi
50 tons EARS
50 tons crew comfort. 
25 tons Flag facilities.
The ships ride 5 cm higher in the water after refit.

[TexanCowboy]

I was counted the now-destroyed Czarania...

Replacing turrets is cash-intensive, something that I don't have in abundance.

[Sachmle]

Marek, how about an updated version of the last Ukraine BBs?

Or perhaps just buy 1 or 2 of the ones Russia is selling?


As to point #1, how about a ship like this?



Velikiy Knyaz Kirill, Velike Kniazistvo Ukrainske Eskadrennye Bronenostsy laid down 1919 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   23,000 t light; 24,093 t standard; 25,388 t normal; 26,424 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 552.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 29.50 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 168.25 m x 28.04 m  x 8.99 m

Armament:
      12 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x3 guns), 900.00lbs / 408.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 45.15lbs / 20.48kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.80lbs / 4.90kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 11,544 lbs / 5,236 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   358.76 ft / 109.35 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   193.21 ft / 58.89 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   358.76 ft / 109.35 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   358.76 ft / 109.35 m   29.49 ft / 8.99 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.2" / 260 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 12.60" / 320 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,000 shp / 29,840 Kw = 22.22 kts
   Range 6,100nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,331 tons

Complement:
   1,005 - 1,307

Cost:
   £4.823 million / $19.290 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,407 tons, 5.5 %
   Armour: 10,031 tons, 39.5 %
      - Belts: 4,385 tons, 17.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 771 tons, 3.0 %
      - Armament: 2,490 tons, 9.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,150 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 234 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,595 tons, 6.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,492 tons, 37.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,388 tons, 9.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,577 lbs / 17,952 Kg = 45.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.593
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 34
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (72 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.00 ft / 6.71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 36,905 Square feet or 3,429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 872 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.04
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily