Possible Drednoughts for sale

[Blooded]

Russia is considering what to do with the Ne Tron Menya series. For the right price, you could have from one to all four. PM, post offers or ideas. I have many ideas of my own for rebuilds, reconstructions and new hulls with old parts but I would like to see what the market would offer.


Ne Tron Menya, Imperial Russia Drednought laid down 1903 (Engine 1907)

Displacement:
   20,365 t light; 21,573 t standard; 23,596 t normal; 25,214 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.90 ft x 26.60 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.32 m  x 8.11 m

Armament:
      12 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,038.00lbs / 470.83kg shells, 1903 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 91.40lbs / 41.46kg shells, 1903 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     20 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.80lbs / 4.90kg shells, 1903 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 14.33lbs / 6.50kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 14,381 lbs / 6,523 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 17.7" / 449.58 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   390.00 ft / 118.87 m   14.75 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   167.00 ft / 50.90 m   14.75 ft / 4.50 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   505.00 ft / 153.92 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   390.00 ft / 118.87 m   28.00 ft / 8.53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 30,000 shp / 22,380 Kw = 20.83 kts
   Range 5,900nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,642 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   951 - 1,237

Cost:
   £2.300 million / $9.199 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,580 tons, 6.7 %
   Armour: 7,883 tons, 33.4 %
      - Belts: 3,635 tons, 15.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 604 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 1,781 tons, 7.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,654 tons, 7.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 209 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,856 tons, 7.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,687 tons, 36.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,231 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 358 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28,842 lbs / 13,082 Kg = 33.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.00 ft / -1.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.40 ft / 5.61 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   17.40 ft / 5.30 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.40 ft / 5.30 m
      - Quarterdeck (13 %):   17.40 ft / 5.30 m
      - Stern:      17.40 ft / 5.30 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.47 ft / 5.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,846 Square feet or 3,516 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc. Weight(358 Tons):
250 Tons Fire Control
25 Tons Long Range Wireless
25 Tons Flag Facilities
24 Tons 17.7" Torpedos(4+20 Reloads)
20 Tons 12x75mm/L50 Training guns
14 Tons Reserve


4 Vessels:
Ne Tron' Menya- laid down: 1903; commissioned: 1906; refit: 1916
Ioann Krestitel - laid down: 1903; commissioned: 1906; refit: 1916
Vasiliy Velikiy- laid down:1904; commissioned: 1907; refit: 1916
Grigory Bogoslov- laid down:1904; commissioned: 1907; refit: 1916

[maddox]

Interesting, The Kronstadts were a good buy too.

I'll check up with my accountant how far the French Budget stretches.  But, Glorious France is having a rearmaments program that is "hard".

[P3D]

Russia is apparently willing to completely dispense with large ship units.

[The Rock Doctor]

I suppose it would behoove me to contemplate what could be done with these vessels.

[Logi]

Hmm interesting, will make an offer when time is available.

[Desertfox]

Too slow, not interested...

[Sachmle]

They're definitely superior in every way to the three Pre-Arcadia's I use for coastal defense in Ost Afrika. However, I don't know if they're superior enough to warrant the extra upkeep/manpower let alone the purchase price I'm sure they'll fetch. At only ~21kts they're too slow for fleet work as is and would require new engines to make them any faster. Although with all Oil firing and 1916 engines they'd probably be quite capable of 23-24kts. Now I wonder if twin 35cm guns would fit in the triple 30.5cm barbettes? Hmm...

[TexanCowboy]

Me no likey armour.

I think I have a fairly good clue, however, on why he's doing it. And it's partly a transition to aysmmetrical warfare, but it's also something else....

[The Rock Doctor]

The belt is thin, but has good height.  Replacing it would not be hideously expensive.  The deck is light for a modern ship, but this isn't a modern ship.

I'm certain twin 35 cm would fit where the triple 12" are.  Twin 38 cm are a possibility.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The 1916 refit and the coal fired make them tempting to the Bavarians, but we really still haven't figured out what we'd do with a battleship, and the few things we've come up with tend to require something different.  Still...

[P3D]

The best rebuild option, IMHO is a simple engine swap, with some marginal armor improvement. Oil fring 22-24kts is the starting point, but it would be relatively cheap (1-1.5BP). 12-shell broadside is still a 12-shell broadside, I won't change armament as that would cost another 2.5+BP.

1. removing upper belt would allow 12" improved KC (13" effective) armor but that's like 3BP i.e. expensive. The cheap solution instead is to increase backing plate thickness by 2" - for an effective 11" protection. But if you can reuse the armor in a new cruiser (even if its old KC) it might worth it.
2. any weight savings from new engines should go to increase armor deck thickness.
3. twin 13.5" possible, 13.8-14" borderline, 15" definitely not, according to SS (triple 12" ~ twin 13.5").
4. turret and deck armor is marginal - not that good.

I.e. perfect to play fleet-in-being, especially if the main opponent does not have many large guns. Another option is to use their enormous range (with oil firing) as ... commerce raiders.

"I think I have a fairly good clue, however, on why he's doing it. And it's partly a transition to asymmetrical warfare, but it's also something else...."

Dunno, the reason for playing Navalism should be the possibility to sink enemy vessels with large-caliber gunfire. Halving one's battlefleet with no realistic expectations to replace them is uncool.

[Blooded]

Hello,

Well...  As I stated, they are only 'possibly' for sale. I wanted to gauge what others think they would be worth, or what they would do with them. The price would have to be right(meaning high). I would not just give them away.  ;)

Russia is in a tough position regarding defending her coasts. I have three major areas to defend(Baltic, Black and Pacific) all of which cannot support the other. Plus two minor(North Atlantic and Caspian-which can be supported from the Black Sea-with difficulty). Splitting up the Heavy units just leaves each with too few to do the job. ie, defeated in detail.

I have spent alot of time and money building up support forces and it is WAY past time to build prestige units. Russias Heavy units may be the oldest around- on average. Modernizing the NTMs would delay that further. Leaving them as is keeps them obsolescent (but they are not bad).

I was expecting to be at war with Ukraine by now, so I 'invested' in some more $ in old but tough BBs. Now the Ukraine is friendly, and the 'investment' looks like a MAJOR error in judgement. OK, to be honest it was retarded, I suppose I shouldn't shop while on pain meds.  ;D

I don't even like BBs. They cost 1/3 of my naval Upkeep each turn, and are so valuable/vulnerable that I would be loath to risk them. Had Russia been mine from the start, I would not have so many as is. 

So all that said, I am still left wondering what to do...  ::)

[The Rock Doctor]

Give them to me.  Think of all the upkeep you'll save, and all the extra crewman you'll have for exciting new duties!

[Walter]

Nah, you're better off giving them to someone you can trust instead of those Evil Columbians (or those Evil French). :D

[Logi]

Like giving it to the RRC :D