Superbe

[maddox]

The first GBB of the Marine National is ready for a refit.
But this semi dreadnaught needs more than a refit.  No FC, still coalfired, and a less than optimal main gun armament arrangement.
2 kts slower and with a lower cruisespeed than the never BB's.

Here is the original SS file.  Anybody clever idea's with pricetag?

Superbe, French Glorious Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   29.918 t light; 31.928 t standard; 36.331 t normal; 39.854 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   611,88 ft / 606,96 ft x 108,27 ft x 29,36 ft (normal load)
   186,50 m / 185,00 m x 33,00 m  x 8,95 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.750,00lbs / 793,79kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns in single mounts, 260,00lbs / 117,93kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,00lbs / 5,44kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 18.568 lbs / 8.422 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Ends:   6,00" / 152 mm   186,00 ft / 56,69 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
     0,96 ft / 0,29 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 106% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,50" / 64 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   8,00" / 203 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33.678 shp / 25.124 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.926 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.315 - 1.710

Cost:
   £3,102 million / $12,407 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.165 tons, 6,0%
   Armour: 13.781 tons, 37,9%
      - Belts: 5.812 tons, 16,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.249 tons, 3,4%
      - Armament: 3.572 tons, 9,8%
      - Armour Deck: 2.817 tons, 7,8%
      - Conning Tower: 331 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.684 tons, 4,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.038 tons, 33,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.413 tons, 17,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55.764 lbs / 25.294 Kg = 33,3 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 10,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 8,4 ft / 2,6 m
   Roll period: 15,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,659
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,26 ft / 5,26 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,26 ft / 5,26 m
      - Stern:      17,26 ft / 5,26 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,89 ft / 5,76 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,0%
   Waterplane Area: 50.757 Square feet or 4.715 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 894 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,43
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

100 tons ears
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons of admirals "extra comfort"

[TexanCowboy]

Gift to Romania in exchange for the Danton and 3 BP's worth of new construction? (And I have 1,500 DD tech, so that shouldn't be a problem.)

Otherwise, remove the 7.68'' guns, place one at each of your new forts, put 5.5'' guns in their place, and add newer engines and increase the speed to 22 knots. Didn't I say something about it in the orginal Romanian report? *checks*

[P3D]

Remove the 195mm guns. Being in hull casemates they are of limited utility.
Use freed up weight to raise B and X turret to superfiring position, add required hull strengthening.
New engines, oil firing, FC, etc. You'd have such a ridiculous range that I'd put 100t misc. weight for refueling equipment (to refuel smaller ships).

I'd say it would go under 'refurbishment' rules, so only minimal (BP) cost.

[TexanCowboy]

Raising B and X is a full rebuild....

[Sachmle]

Remove the 195mm guns. Being in hull casemates they are of limited utility.
Use freed up weight to raise B and X turret to superfiring position, add required hull strengthening.
New engines, oil firing, FC, etc. You'd have such a ridiculous range that I'd put 100t misc. weight for refueling equipment (to refuel smaller ships).

I'd say it would go under 'refurbishment' rules, so only minimal (BP) cost.

If not for the ripping out of the barbettes for B and X and installing the new taller ones I'd agree w/ the Refurb. It's not like you can stack a deck high 30' diameter(guessing) ring of 14" steel on top of another and then weld them together and expect it to have any real strength.

[Marek Gutkowski]

I also say that razing the mains is a bad idea.
Removing the 195mm, and adding deck armor is all this ship need.

Then again it is slower that other ships in the fleet.
If it dose not fit with the rest of the fleet I'll scrap it or sell it and don't bother my self with this ship anymore. 

Its a good ship but if it a white elephant its uses are limited.

[maddox]

An attemp to include everything.

Superbe rebuild, French Glorious Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30.589 t light; 32.318 t standard; 35.519 t normal; 38.080 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   611,88 ft / 606,96 ft x 108,27 ft x 28,71 ft (normal load)
   186,50 m / 185,00 m x 33,00 m  x 8,75 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.323 lbs / 7.404 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Ends:   6,00" / 152 mm   186,00 ft / 56,69 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
     0,96 ft / 0,29 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 106% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,50" / 64 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 47.877 shp / 35.716 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.762 tons

Complement:
   1.293 - 1.681

Cost:
   £2,904 million / $11,614 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.885 tons, 5,3%
   Armour: 13.572 tons, 38,2%
      - Belts: 5.812 tons, 16,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.249 tons, 3,5%
      - Armament: 3.369 tons, 9,5%
      - Armour Deck: 2.817 tons, 7,9%
      - Conning Tower: 326 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.784 tons, 5,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.748 tons, 35,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.930 tons, 13,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     53.923 lbs / 24.459 Kg = 32,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
   Metacentric height 6,3 ft / 1,9 m
   Roll period: 18,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,659
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,18 ft / 9,20 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,91 ft / 5,46 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,91 ft / 5,46 m
      - Stern:      17,91 ft / 5,46 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,55 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138,1%
   Waterplane Area: 50.757 Square feet or 4.715 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 946 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,46
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

B and X raised, new engines, oil fired, new superstructure, new secundaries

250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
100 tons damage controle extra's
50 tons of admirals "extra comfort"
50 tons not assigned.

[Sachmle]

Me thinks you've got some kinda SNAFU in your gun armor

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

Seems your 37mm guns are rather well protected though.  ;)

[TexanCowboy]

Me thinks that Minister Carpet should have another heat flash....  ;D

But really, I am incredible thankful for the first battleship....

[maddox]

Superbe rebuild, French Glorious Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30.602 t light; 32.318 t standard; 35.519 t normal; 38.080 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   611,88 ft / 606,96 ft x 108,27 ft x 28,71 ft (normal load)
   186,50 m / 185,00 m x 33,00 m  x 8,75 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.146 lbs / 7.324 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Ends:   6,00" / 152 mm   186,96 ft / 56,98 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 106% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,50" / 64 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 47.877 shp / 35.716 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.762 tons

Complement:
   1.293 - 1.681

Cost:
   £2,904 million / $11,616 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.885 tons, 5,3%
   Armour: 13.564 tons, 38,2%
      - Belts: 5.815 tons, 16,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.249 tons, 3,5%
      - Armament: 3.358 tons, 9,5%
      - Armour Deck: 2.817 tons, 7,9%
      - Conning Tower: 326 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.784 tons, 5,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.770 tons, 36,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.917 tons, 13,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     54.400 lbs / 24.675 Kg = 32,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,07
   Metacentric height 6,4 ft / 1,9 m
   Roll period: 18,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,659
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,18 ft / 9,20 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,91 ft / 5,46 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,91 ft / 5,46 m
      - Stern:      17,91 ft / 5,46 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,55 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138,1%
   Waterplane Area: 50.757 Square feet or 4.715 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 947 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,46
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

B and X raised, new engines, oil fired, new ,larger superstructure, new secundaries

250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe
25 tons Long range marconi
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons damage controle extra's
50 tons of admirals "extra comfort"
150 tons not assigned