Choo! Choo! Some interesting things and links relating to railroads

[Borys]

Due to the vast distances and undeveloped infrastructure, the Republic of Orange was in a dire need to improve the transport situation. The solution was to develop a light narrow-gauge rail system. inroduced in the early 1890s. With a gauge of 750mm, 6m long prefabricated track elements on timbers, which can be carried by four or six men, 1km of track can be laid down a day. The performance of the railway is not spectacular, it must be compared to horse-drawn wagons with a capacity of around 2t and considerably less speed. In arid areas, the locomotives are used with a condenser car, to conserve scarce water.

Most of the narrow-guage lines started as field railways constructed by the Army, which is thus capable of maintaining presence in remote areas, even in division size.

user posted image

Specifications
Locomotive

      weight 15t
      Power 60HP
      Max Speed 30 km/h


Capacity is 60t freight, 300 passengers, or one infantry company with equipment.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Aug 14 2006, 02:26 AM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
Such track can be laid much faster than 1km a day. In emergencies military engineers can lay 20-30km a day (depends on terrain, of course). But across the Veldt, or other rather flat and rather open spaces it can be laid very, very fast.

Borys

   
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P3D    
Posted: Aug 14 2006, 12:32 PM


Hegemon
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I am usually building 100kms of track in the middle of nowhere. The track I am laying will also have to deliver all the building materials - and I cannot start building at multiple places, but only at the end, thus advance slowly.

For the US First Transcontinental Railroad the record for tracklaying is 16km a day (standard gauge) in the 1860s, so I'd assume a higher construction speed is possible, say 2-3km a day sustained.
   
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Earl822    
Posted: Aug 14 2006, 01:59 PM


Hegemon
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Assume on the flat with no major earth works, and 20lb a yard track laid on wooden sleepers more like 20km a day.
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Aug 14 2006, 02:50 PM


Hegemon
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Depends if the railroad is being laid down in hostile country.

   
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P3D    
Posted: Aug 14 2006, 03:55 PM


Hegemon
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QUOTE (Earl822 @ Aug 14 2006, 01:59 PM)
Assume on the flat with no major earth works, and 20lb a yard track laid on wooden sleepers more like 20km a day.

Well, I'd have to ask a railwayman on this issue (my father).
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Aug 14 2006, 04:39 PM


Hegemon
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OOC

Earl 822 has his own experience with railways. I myself have experience in the industry.

We can't compare the situations directly, time and space seperate us from Navalism earth.
But if the Orange Republic tells the world that its engineers and workforce lays down 1 kilometer of tracks a day, then it's up to the world to believe it or not.

Only when it could be abused to get an unfair advantage, I'll see what can be done on it.

For Example

In game

Current events.
QUOTE
Paris, Hotel Bonaparte

Bonjour Premier Palpaté.

Hello monsieur the Envoy Krüger.  What can France do your you on this glorious raining day?
Actualy Premier Palpaté, it's only a small thing, but could you "steer" your newpapers in publishing this article.

(reading it fast)

Only 1 km a day. But that's terribly slow isn't it? According to my data, you could lay down at least 15 km.

Yes Premier, but can your workforce do that when the Zulu's steal the rails faster than they get layed down?
   
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Borys    
Posted: Aug 16 2006, 02:33 AM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
Maybe I did get carried away with the 20+ km per day ... smile.gif
Or I was thinking 60cm gauge.
Or I don't know what I was talking about biggrin.gif
Anyway, Japan went with 1067mm (38 inc) gauge in the 1870s, and still has them. So it is pretty plausible for a whole country to run on narrow gauge.
Although 75cm looks a tad small ...
Maybe Oranje could go with a national standard of 36 inch, 1 meter or 38 inch, and stick to it?
Borys
   
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Earl822    
Posted: Aug 16 2006, 02:56 AM


Hegemon
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760mm is relatively easy to lay, especially if the trackbed in relatively level, or you've got plenty of men on the job. As far as rail weight goes you'll need 30lb a yard.

Now I can speak from experience, as I work as a volunteer on the Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway in Wales, which is 2ft 6in or 760mm gauge.

If Orange is looking for a national standard gauge, try Cape Gauge i.e. 3ft 6in gauge, with maybe 2'6" (760mm) reserved for military railways. (Though Sierra Leone's national network was 760mm gauge).
   
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P3D    
Posted: Aug 16 2006, 04:02 AM


Hegemon
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Orange has two railway gauge. One heavier, standard/board gauge, but this network is limited connecting major ports and industrial centers. The other is a more extensive 750mm, smaller capacity, but much cheaper and faster to build. This is also used by the military, because a freight train can take larger cargo faster than horse-drawn carts. And 750mm because Orange is a modern country using the metric system. Bah...
So your obscure experience with basically the same gauge is most welcome smile.gif. My railways experience is not so specific - but having two railwaymen grandfather, a railways engineer father and an engine-driver uncle has its own bad influence.

I decided against the Cape gauge, because Navalism Orange is much more industrialized than South Africa was IRL, and Orange can afford a heavy rail network.

BTW I got the idea on this two-tier system from the Austrian-Hungarian railways. Hungary still has an large (100kms) working network of those, waiting to be reduced to tourist attraction.

The only exaple I could find for sustainable working speed in inhospitable climate is the Trans-Australian Railway, 1700km in 5 years, with two railheads advancing towards each other - giving roughly a 0.5km/day track laying speed, so my first guess was not too bad.

But I realized the main bottleneck won't be the track laying but delivering materials by rail to the construction. Assuming 15kg/m rail, one meter of track with sleepers should weight about 50kg. A train with 200t usable freight load is thus 4km of track. With 20km/h speed and taking a distance of 30km that must be travelled from the last depot each day, you could build, say, 2 trains worth of track at most a day. Assume glitches, logistical problems (NTM attacking savages , resistance and such), and that reduces to one. This gives roughly 4-5km/day (still 10 times the Australian example).
   
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Phoenix    
Posted: Aug 16 2006, 07:29 AM


Hegemon
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The Middle Kingdom has a substantial railroad network already in place (and still expanding, it can be found in my Encyclopedia section) but I didn't give much attention to the gauge. I'll look it up.
But anyway, with the manpower I have at my disposal, and with substantial mines and industry, I could theoretically cover large distances in one day, but... there is always a but... the terrain is not always ideal. One has to cut through mountains, pass over rivers, avoid cities... expect those delays in the more populated and the more geographically rugged nations.
But the resources can be scarce or difficult to obtain. How to calculate that ? It must be part of the Heavy Industry, thus HBP as payment for it.

Example: I have a map of industrial resources of China: fuels, power, minerals and metals. From sometime in late 20th century. Very interesting stuff. So I know my railroads can effectively be built with what I can dig up and refine mysel. So I don't really have to think about the needed resources (yet). But others might. And that is where the HBP come in.
My railroads are part of the military infrastructure because I use railguns for coastal defence and troops deployments. When they are sabotaged I must pay for them. That is why I must pay for the railguns.
   
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P3D    
Posted: Aug 16 2006, 12:13 PM


Hegemon
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Got some numbers from my father. I'll settle at 5km/day average building rate. Train axleload is 3-4t, wagon weight 2-4t, wagon load 4-10t. Total train weight is 1-200t, speed is 20-30km/h, that was a good guess from me.

Phoenix:
for railguns you definitely need a heavier, standard or broad-gauge truck. My narrow-gauge railways is much cheaper (1/3-1/4 the materials and cost) and requires even less earthmoving. By Maddox I don't have to pay extra cost for these field railways - but i will basically use up my pre-war rail stockpiles to build railways across Namibia.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Aug 28 2006, 06:18 AM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
As this has become a rail oriented thread, I'll ask about track laying costs.

Browsing the web I've come across a snippet that laying track from 916 mm (3 feet) upwards costs more or less the same, with gradual increase in cost from the narrowest to widest.
There is however, a sharp drop of cost BELOW 916mm, i.e. in the move down to 760mm and smaller gauge.

Anybody know if this is true?

Another thing I've discovered is that a 1067mm line built for heavy traffic can carry loads as heavy - and as fast - as "light" or "standard" lines of 1435mm or broader gauge.

Oranje, which is in many ways an island, can go with any track gauge it can dream off - how about Ye Olde Nederlands gauge 1945mm?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrow_gauge

Borys
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Aug 28 2006, 03:35 PM


Hegemon
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The rails themselfs aren't different.
The wideness of the track has 2 main influences. Stability of the trains and stability of the tracks.
Wider tracks with big sleepers can carry heavier loads without sinking into the soil.
In terms of speed, wider tracks allow higher speeds.

Pricetag. Again the rails are equaly expensive, but the wider sleepers require bigger trees.
And those are expensive.
   
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P3D    
Posted: Aug 28 2006, 04:14 PM


Hegemon
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For narrow gauge (under 1m), the rails themselves are much lighter, as they are not designed for really heavy traffic. For a narrow-gauge rail you can have a 10-15kg/m rail. Your axleload is 4t at most. Hungarian 762mm narrow-gauge uses 25-32kg/m rails, with a max speed of 40-70km/h and an axleload of 6-8t. That's 1950's tech level.

If you want a larger load, and especially higher speed, much heavier rails are needed. Express trains in 1890 had speeds of 90km/h. For heavy railways, regardless of the actual gauge if you want a 12-16-20t axleload, something like 32kg/m is the minimum. The rail used nowadays in construction is 72kg/m and up. And besides the longer sleepers, the track fundation must be much more massive.


Current max axleload 35t for both Standard and 1067mm rails (US, South Africa), Europe is usually limited to 25t. The advantage of broader gauge is that the wagons can be wider (stability), and it also allows for larger speeds - 1067mm trains are usually limited to 160km/h. With a ~2m gauge, there won't be problems with 4m wide trains.

Orange broad-gauge is 2m - Orange being a big metric fan

[Borys]

 Ahoj!
Thank you for your answers. With a 2m broad gauge in use, a two-gauge system seems to be natural and logical.
If it was me, I'd use 1m as the secondary gauge, as the broad gauge is so huge. But that's your country smile.gif

Borys
   
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Borys    
Posted: Aug 30 2006, 03:18 AM


Ahoj!
Light RR in WWI. IMO relevant for us.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Military_Light_Railways

Borys

Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
These two pictures got me wondering:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dual_Ga...ail_3_Gauge.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dual_Ga...ail_2_Gauge.jpg

Would it be possible, to arrange two 760cm tracks alongside, as to allow special cars to run on top of all four rails?

Like the Gustav railguns, which ran on two standard tracks at the same time:
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Co...ora%20index.htm
http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/...2.html#railguns

Or would 2x760mm be too wide, and 2x600mm be better? What is the clearance between the inner rails on a two track 60cm line? Could a platform have a boogie for each track, and the distance between the inner wheels (of the separate boogies) would be 60-90cm, for a total gauge of 1800-2100?

Or maybe when laying 760mm track, immediately prepare for laying a third rail for future two gauge operations (c.1000 plus the 760)?

Am I delirious?
smile.gif
Borys
   
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P3D    
Posted: Aug 30 2006, 10:48 AM


Hegemon
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Two narrow-gauge track has less capacity than a single standard one. If you really want to, you can build double lines, to accomodate travel in both directions wit ease. And leave clearance to upgrade the track in the future - although standard-gauge has much strict requirements regarding slope and track curvature (another reason for high cost).
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 07:46 PM


Großeadmiral Sumpfhühn
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Here's something that might be of interest.

I'll have to do some digging (and thinking) for the exact routes; however DKB gauge is currently 1m (3' 3 3/8") for main lines, and 600mm (1' 11 5/8") for minor lines and field railways (this appears to be the historical German military gauge, BTW).

There may be standard gauge in colonial futures, though... cool.gif
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 11:27 PM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
I've come across that site before, but it's always nice to look at.
But Austria being an Iberic gauge user doesn't seem correct. This is not mentioned anywhere else (or I hadn't found it).
However, the Portugues/Spanish rationale for the broader gauge - stronger locomotives for mountainous terrain - would apply.

Borys
   
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Earl822    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 02:26 AM


Hegemon
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Not really, the austrians also used 760mm gauge, as it is cheaper to build into the mountains
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 05:13 AM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
'Tis true, but 2'6" is a tad small for a national network smile.gif
Still, I've seen 3'6" selected by Japan as cheaper and better for mountains, as well as the "Olde Spanyshe Fathom" on the Peninsula.

Different principles, I suppose. The Spanish and Portguese didn't worry about turn radius, but gradients, it seems.

Now, the "natural" gauge for Austria would be c.5 feet, i.e. 1520mm - same as Russian (Imperial Russian was 1524 - not that the 4mm really matters) gauge. I gather that from 760mm being (according to the site Sumpfhuen linked to) half of something called the "Wiener klafter". The "0" might very well be due to rounding, instead of "2", which would very neatly add up to 1524m, i.e. 5 feet.

Frankly, I'm tempted to switch to "Imperial Russian" gauge. Five feet is a natural measure, not 4' 8 1/2".
Also, with the free trade agreement it would facilitate commerce even further.
Now, as to possible drawbacks -
- Silesian coal - it is so close to the border that some "Imperial Austrian" tracks may be laid (or two gauge track used)
- Russian invasion - blowing up tunnels and bridges in the Carpathians would be more effective than a gauge break ...
- exports to rest of Europe - now that might be a problem - but if Russian exports are worth more, guess what happens ....
- cost of switch - rolling stock can simply be given new boogies*; rails will be same; in some cases sleepers will be same; if - starting at some date - all new sleepers are to be slightly longer, switch will be painless; bridges and tunnels might be more of a pain - maybe leave Tirolese lines as they are?

BTW - in Taiwan, with 3'6" network (Japanese legacy) - in some places the terrain is so bad, that double track - allowing trains to pass - is INSIDE tunnels. The tunnels cost three times as much to build, but there simply was no even ground to lay double track.

* I used to travel by train almost every year to Leningrad/Sankt Peterburg. The train is jacked up and boogies replaced.

Borys
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 06:53 AM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
Going for the 5 feet gauge would also give me some goodwill in Russia. I've noticed the Russian soul to include three conflicting elements:
1 - the "everything's larger in Texas" Syndrom - "they have 4' 8 1/2"? Then we will slap 3 1/2 inch on top of that!";
2 - Russia is unque, i.e. there is the right way, and there is the Russian way. "The fact that this solution works everywhere else does not mean it will work here. Russia is different, you know.";
3 - occasional doubts - "if the rest of the world is doing it one way, and we - alone - another, then maybe we are wrong after all?";

Hence, Austria switching to 5 feet 1524mm will make some Russians piss with glee! They had been right all along, after all!

BTW - Russia chose 5 feet/1524mm BEFORE the 4' 8 1/2" /1435mm gauge became the STANDARD gauge.

Borys
   
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Earl822    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 04:19 PM


Hegemon
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Oh, but a colliery man in stockton came up with the Standard gauge in the early 1800's or before
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 04:39 PM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
And all neighboring coaleries differed from the one you mention.
All the gauges "around" 5 feet - give or take a couple of inches in either direction, stem from attempts to solve the same, technical question:
how to squeeze two horse arsses together ...
tongue.gif
Borys
   
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Borys    
Posted: Nov 2 2006, 06:43 PM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
Here
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=90277
it says that the Cape Colony started with Standard Gauge, but the difficulty (i.e. cost) of scaling the escrapment into the Veldt made the railroad builders downgrade to 3'6".
Puts your fancy 6'8" gauge in an interesting perspective smile.gif
Borys
   
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P3D    
Posted: Nov 2 2006, 07:01 PM


Hegemon
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Bah! I'll use twice the amount of dynamite and blast my way through the Veldt!
   
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Borys    
Posted: Nov 2 2006, 07:08 PM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Please, don't hold back - Nuk'em! Nuk'em!
smile.gif
More railroad related info - sorry that not Cape specific:
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r081.html

You can go for the Brazilian solution:
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r059.html


BTW - your dynamite answer is very much in "boorish" character smile.gif

Borys
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Nov 2 2006, 07:46 PM


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QUOTE (P3D @ Nov 2 2006, 07:01 PM)
Bah! I'll use twice the amount of dynamite and blast my way through the Veldt!

biggrin.gif

Reminded me of a sigline I saw on another forum once...


"Subtleness is for suckers and paitence is a waste of time! And skimping has NEVER been a recipe for success so INCREASE THE DOSAGE!"

cool.gif
   
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Borys    
Posted: Nov 4 2006, 10:51 AM


Kaiser und Koenig Stefan
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Ahoj!
I was talking with my parents at dinner today, and I related part of my RR findings to them. As they are well travelled and observant, I gained some insights and a family anecdote.

I was begotten in Peking, somewhere around May 1967. And in December 1967 my parents made the Peking-Warsaw trip by rail. After the smooth ride across the Soviet state, the jerky and bumpy ride from Brest-Litovsk to Warsaw made them apprehensive and half-seriously expect a pre-mature birth for me smile.gif
But I arrived on schedule in February.

Borys

[swamphen]

Nv3 DKB will retain the 5-foot Imperial Gauge  ;D , 1m and 600mm gauges, however there will (obviously) be a complete re-think of the Layouts To Date (including a much less extensive Colonial system).

[Earl822]

The Seirra Leone Government Railway will be 2ft 6in gauge, and equipped with UNK built rolling stock, and will be a bit bigger than in RL

[The Rock Doctor]

Hmm...

Well, Gran Colombia's a bit of a geographical island:  probably no links to Dutch Surinam, nor to Brazil, Peru, or New Rhun.  So I can pick what I want.

Historically, Colombia and Ecuador have used a 914 mm / 3' gauge.  Makes some sense - the bulk of the population's in mountainous terrain where the narrower tracks work well, and the flatter terrain doesn't have a lot of population, so doesn't have huge transport requirements.  So I'm guessing Gran Colombia is almost exclusively narrow gauge.  Still, I'll look to see if there are a few places where a larger gauge might be warranted - along the coasts or the trans-Darien route, for instance...

[Phoenix]

Borys has done some excellent research for me and I will be posting the map in question soon. But the Middle Kingdom seems to be using the following:
- Standard, i.e. 4" 8 1/2' (1485mm) gauge track in China proper.
- Meter, i.e. 3"3' (1000mm) gauge track from the town Nanning to the Vietnamese border and in Vietnam proper.

[Desertfox]

NS wont have much in the way of railroads, and since it is split into different unconnect parts I can pretty much use any guage anywhere! Probably 5" in Australia, 4" elsewhere.

[Earl822]

5 inch? or did you mean 5' (foot), I'd have personally thought that NS might go for meter gauge throughout.

[Ithekro]

Speaking of railroads, the rails over Sioux lands will need to have them as partners (or owners) in the railroad...or else they wouldn't let you use their lands.

[Earl822]

Naturally

[Desertfox]

No its 5 inches, you see its our giant scale model railroad, runs great but price is steep. :-D

Mistake on my part, NS will stick with the Imperial system, no metrics for me.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The bunkers of Mauretania/Lusitania needed 22 trains, each with thirty 10-ton cars, to be filled.

Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I know :)
The UK was producing 250 (?) million tons a year, and Austria 35M ...

Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I finally found loading gauge for Polish RR.
http://www.archeo.kolej.pl/FAQ/FAQ-02-skrajnia.pl.shtml

The bottom three are - clockwise - with light construction overhead, and overhead electricty - lowered, with heavy construction overhead - and lenient.
Borys