DKB Ships of the next decade (1920-1929)

[Sachmle]

Cut the secondaries to 12cm, cut armor to 4", and cut speed back to ~32kts. Comes in 800t lighter

GK 22-2-2, Deutche Kaiserreich GroBe Kreuzer laid down 1922

Displacement:
   12,000 t light; 12,569 t standard; 13,430 t normal; 14,119 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   616.80 ft / 610.24 ft x 65.62 ft x 22.15 ft (normal load)
   188.00 m / 186.00 m x 20.00 m  x 6.75 m

Armament:
     8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
     16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1922 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,854 lbs / 1,294 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   6 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   446.19 ft / 136.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.12" / 130 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 106,000 shp / 79,076 Kw = 32.26 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,550 tons

Complement:
   623 - 810

Cost:
   £3.351 million / $13.404 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 363 tons, 2.7 %
   Armour: 2,366 tons, 17.6 %
      - Belts: 949 tons, 7.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 356 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 999 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,596 tons, 26.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,175 tons, 38.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,430 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,493 lbs / 5,667 Kg = 44.2 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.30 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.75 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.93 ft / 7.60 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.78 ft / 6.64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,429 Square feet or 2,548 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 576 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250t 1912 Fire Control
75t 3 1913/1916 Scout Float Planes
50t Reserve Weight
40t 40 Mines
25t Long Range Markoni
25t 1905 Sehendes Auge
18t 6x3t 1918 60cm Torpedoes
17t Crane for Planes

[The Bushranger]

Nice work. Although my heart says 210mm guns are too plain and common. ;)

[Sachmle]

Probable Battleship for the 1920s

Ersatz P, Brandenburger Schlachtschiffe laid down 1920

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 36,632 t standard; 39,064 t normal; 41,010 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.80 ft / 715.22 ft x 105.97 ft x 30.02 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 218.00 m x 32.30 m  x 9.15 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,653.47lbs / 750.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (12x2 guns), 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      5 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, majority forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,953 lbs / 6,783 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   5 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   433.07 ft / 132.00 m   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
   Ends:   4.72" / 120 mm   282.15 ft / 86.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      4.72" / 120 mm   433.07 ft / 132.00 m   28.71 ft / 8.75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   10.2" / 260 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 88,000 shp / 65,648 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 8,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,378 tons

Complement:
   1,389 - 1,806

Cost:
   £7.670 million / $30.679 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,892 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 14,781 tons, 37.8 %
      - Belts: 4,478 tons, 11.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 2,173 tons, 5.6 %
      - Armament: 3,717 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,041 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 371 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,077 tons, 7.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,526 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,064 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 725 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     56,979 lbs / 25,845 Kg = 34.0 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 10.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.601
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.15 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.92 ft / -1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.08 ft / 7.95 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.58 ft / 6.58 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 55,481 Square feet or 5,154 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 943 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

All Armor is 1915 Improved KC
Main Belt is Sloped 10 Degrees

TDS is 6 20mm bulkheads forming 5 void layers. Inner and outer most are void, 3 middle are liquid filled.

Armor deck is 25mm Weatherdeck at main deck level with a 75mm Main Armored Deck capping the main belt and a 25mm splinter deck under the MAD. Forcastle and Quarterdeck are 25mm Weatherdeck and 25mm main deck. (Averages out to 100mm ~overall, extra in the middle, less on the ends.)

Miscellaneous Weight Breakdown
250t Reserved for 1912 Main Fire Control
250t Reserved for 1912 Secondary Fire Control
25t Long Range Markoni Installation
25t 1905 Sehendes Auge
30t 15 1913 2t 50cm Torpedoes, 3 Per Tube
25t 1912 Star Shells and Extra Searchlights
120t Weight Reserve

[TexanCowboy]

Oh, we'll find that German battleship that's making such a fuss.
We gotta sink the Ersatz P cause the world depends on us.

Hey, it does sort of look like the Bismarck.....

[P3D]

The ship is slow or underarmed. Either get it to 28kts or down to 23-24kts and increase armament.

20mm TBHs are counterproductive, they are too rigid to deform easily, and thickness does not really matter vs. shockwaves. 10+10+10+10+10+40(50) should be better - the latter to catch splinters from the former ones.

I see no point in two calibers of light AA guns. Also, the 88mm would require the 1924 AA tech. Add heavy MGs (13mm?).

Where are the shell handling rooms for the secondaries?

[Jefgte]

Nice drawing & well balanced BB

I note the high bulkhead thickness - 120mm !!!

Is that really useful?


Jef

[Sachmle]

The ship is slow or underarmed. Either get it to 28kts or down to 23-24kts and increase armament.

Underarmed? 8x15" is underarmed? As to speed, she's the "QE" to my fleet. The first step towards increasing the battleline speed. I gotta start somewhere. 28-30knots is NOT BB territory, it's BC territory. I don't like 'blended' designs...they're either huge or missing something. Just as QE was 24kts while the rest of the RN was 21kts, these are 26kts while the HSF is 23kts.

20mm TBHs are counterproductive, they are too rigid to deform easily, and thickness does not really matter vs. shockwaves. 10+10+10+10+10+40(50) should be better - the latter to catch splinters from the former ones.

I had it at 90mm and wondered if 15mm was thick enough, but your 10+10+10+10+10+40 makes sense.

I see no point in two calibers of light AA guns. Also, the 88mm would require the 1924 AA tech. Add heavy MGs (13mm?).

Fair enough on the 50mm and 37mm. Which would be better to keep? As to the 13mm I was thinking more like 15mm, but yeah good idea.
As to the 88s and tech level:
1) There is no '1924 AA tech'
2) The 1903 tech includes "Field guns firing non-AA specific ammunition.", let alone the the 1910 tech I have "1910 (0):  Purpose designed weapons and ammunition, including hand adjusted timed-fused shells for larger calibers, and tracers in machine guns and autocannon."

Where are the shell handling rooms for the secondaries?

Probably the same place they were on KGV and the US WWII BBs with similar 2nd layout, or the same place they would be for that matter if these were all casemates on deck level, under them.

Nice drawing & well balanced BB

I note the high bulkhead thickness - 120mm !!!

Is that really useful?


Jef

If you note the 'notes' under the sim report, it's

TDS is 6 20mm bulkheads forming 5 void layers. Inner and outer most are void, 3 middle are liquid filled.

[TexanCowboy]

The Standards used 3 layers of 20 mm, and they were pretty darn resistant to torpedo damage....

[Jefgte]

...Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     56,979 lbs / 25,845 Kg = 34.0 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 10.8 torpedoes

10.8Torpedoes with 6x20 =120mm

Did you test with 80-60-40mm thickness to see the difference ?


Jef

[Sachmle]

...Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     56,979 lbs / 25,845 Kg = 34.0 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 10.8 torpedoes

10.8Torpedoes with 6x20 =120mm

Did you test with 80-60-40mm thickness to see the difference ?


Jef

80mm = 10.5
60mm = 10.0
40mm = 9.6

[Sachmle]

Tweeked it. Cut TDS bulkheads to 5x10mm + 50mm holding/splinter bulkhead. Swapped out the 50mm AA for 37mm and the 37mm for 15mm HMGs. Added upper belt to protect shell handling room/magazines for the 13cm guns. All in all cost me 1/2 a knot.

Ersatz Pv2, Brandenburger Schlachtschiffe laid down 1920

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 36,630 t standard; 39,070 t normal; 41,022 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.80 ft / 715.22 ft x 106.07 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 218.00 m x 32.33 m  x 9.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,653.47lbs / 750.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (12x2 guns), 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      5 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, majority forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,932 lbs / 6,773 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   5 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   433.07 ft / 132.00 m   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   282.15 ft / 86.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   4.72" / 120 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
     Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.94" / 100 mm   433.07 ft / 132.00 m   28.71 ft / 8.75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   10.2" / 260 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 82,000 shp / 61,172 Kw = 25.50 kts
   Range 8,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,391 tons

Complement:
   1,389 - 1,806

Cost:
   £7.595 million / $30.381 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,889 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 14,943 tons, 38.2 %
      - Belts: 4,967 tons, 12.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,811 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armament: 3,713 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,081 tons, 10.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 371 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,867 tons, 7.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,576 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,070 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 725 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     59,336 lbs / 26,914 Kg = 35.4 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 11.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.610
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.15 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.92 ft / -1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.08 ft / 7.95 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.58 ft / 6.58 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 56,029 Square feet or 5,205 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 943 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

All Armor is 1915 Improved KC
Main Belt is Sloped 10 Degrees

TDS is 5 10mm bulkheads and 1 50mm splinter bulkhead forming 5 void layers. Inner and outer most are void, 3 middle are liquid filled.

Armor deck is 25mm Weatherdeck at main deck level with a 75mm Main Armored Deck capping the main belt and a 25mm splinter deck under the MAD. Forcastle and Quarterdeck are 25mm Weatherdeck and 25mm main deck. (Averages out to 100mm ~overall, extra in the middle, less on the ends.)

Miscellaneous Weight Breakdown
250t Reserved for 1912 Main Fire Control
250t Reserved for 1912 Secondary Fire Control
25t Long Range Markoni Installation
25t 1905 Sehendes Auge
30t 15 1913 2t 50cm Torpedoes, 3 Per Tube
25t 1912 Star Shells and Extra Searchlights
120t Weight Reserve

[TexanCowboy]

If you're following the pattern of historical German ships, the BC should be lower to account for the big cut of hull taken out because of the submerged torpedoes.....Tan was going off once about this.

[Sachmle]

That would be true, IF I cut the bow the same way they did. I, however, did not.

[TexanCowboy]

Then where are the submerged torpedoes situated?

[Valles]

Looking at her, I compare her first to Cross Mirage, then to the rest of my fleet - and I hope, as someone who'd ultimately expect to end up trading blows with her, that she never, ever gets built. ^_^

Very nice, Sam. One of the very few ships in the world that can give Cross Mirage a convincing fight, and she's much faster. A beautiful and well-balanced design that makes sense in context of both the KM and the ocean they live on.