Real life weapons

[maddox]

A result of a diversion in the newsroom tread of Carthaginian this tread could be a place to write about weapons, weapon laws and ideas of what we see and know of the world as it is.

One of my premisses is,

"a government that doesn't trusts its people with weapons, is very aware that they are doing things that urge normal people to the use of weapons."

[Marek Gutkowski]

Umm this is a potentially very ugly can of worms...

As for Your quote.
I have another

government is to be afraid of its people not people of there government

;D 

Well Your quote is interesting but I don't think is all that valid.
People usually know that there weapons will not faze the government in the slightest.
Civilians can get there hand on a RPG at best or equivalent.
The government has 1t ton aerial bombs 203mm Self-propelled artillery NBC gear and freight train loads of people with Assault Rifles.

Were I was in the military my fear was that I will be ordered to pacify my own people.
The fire power we were daily issued was bad enough but the stuff that was sitting in hangars and machine parks was down right scary. A flight of a Mi-24 was a sight I will never forget. Beauty personified. 

My view on civilian gun owner ship is that it be limited to recreational and self-defence use.
If some one says that he wants a sub-machine gun of self-defence. I say hell no.
Calibre is to be restricted to 20mm, and arbitrary number but that will make grenade launchers of limits.
Automatic weapons are to be illegal. Semi-automatics are fine by me.
Size of the clip/magazine is to be as big as one thinks is what he needs.

     

[maddox]

You're not entirely incorrect, and a government that isn't afraid of its people can set reasonable restrictions without going to extremes.

Unfortunatly, it seems that any excuse is good to disarm the European citizens.

I ask, what government can forbid me to manufacture weapons with my tools and skills?

[Marek Gutkowski]

Well couple of elections back my party tried to give the citizens easier access to guns.
That almost made not vote for them.

Here gun owner ship became easier in the last years. 

[Carthaginian]

I fully agree, Mario.
I've handled firearms, blades and heavy blunt objects enough in my life to know that not a single one of them is inherently dangerous... or at least no more so than a pencil, pen, automobile key or slingshot.

The only practical use of removing the right of a free man to own a firearm is to impose your rules on him using a firearm (superior firepower cannot be argued with, at least not cheaply... Marek, you are right on that score). Every gun control measure passed on planet Earth has failed in it's intend to stop criminals from acquiring firearms... because criminals ignore those pesky laws in the course of their enterprise. I laugh out loud at the people who say that hunting is immoral because animals are unable to defend themselves from men with firearms, but will in the next breath say that men do not deserve the right to own firearms to protect themselves from a criminal so armed.

Personally, if someone sees me on the street and I am not either 1.) going to or coming from work, 2.) going to or coming from a government building (or other facility where carrying is forbidden by law or facility policy) or 3.) going to or coming from church then it is safe for that person to assume that I am armed with at least one firearm and one respectable bladed weapon. I own two 'carry' firearms and a plethora of utility and collectible weapons.

My 'daily carry' weapons is this:

Walther PK380 - light compact and convenient... and very inexpensive to boot ($375 US)!


Glock 23 - power, capacity, and durability... a great all-around gun, but a bit much to pack under a T-shirt!


PS - just to illustrate that any gun can be used for anything, I took a deer with the Glock on a draw shot at about 8m several years ago.

[maddox]

With 6'1" and 220lbs, on a wide frame (I have short limbs and a big belly) I can hide considerable stuff. But I don't see any reason for it.

Oh well.  Just to illustrate my view on weapons.


When early man was getting organised, we have one Ugh. A clever fellow. When he tried to crack a nut, he used a simple stone, and he learned that it worked well with a fairly light stone, but with a heavier one, the nut became paste.  To heavy and it was to much of a bother , and making even a worse mess of the toughest nuts.

But when that pesky sabertooth came by, and tried to eat Ughs favorite wife, that heavy stone did shatter the Sabertooths skull.  The tribe was astonished...

Unfortunatly. Ughs skull wasn't stoneproof when Og wanted that same favorite wife in his cave. 

[maddox]

Just a tought that ran trough my head.

The BMG .50 "Ma deuce" is a design in use for 90 years now, without any big changes. And most, if not all militaries still use it.

But, is there a replacement?

Outside some munition guzzling gatling or chain guns that are heavier, a lot more expensive and more prone to breakdowns, I can't imagine one.

[Carthaginian]

Just a tought that ran trough my head.

The BMG .50 "Ma deuce" is a design in use for 90 years now, without any big changes. And most, if not all militaries still use it.

But, is there a replacement?

Outside some munition guzzling gatling or chain guns that are heavier, a lot more expensive and more prone to breakdowns, I can't imagine one.

Ma's reassuring voice is already being silenced, Mario.
Her first partial replacement will go into circulation in 2012. The new weapon is mostly for mobile units like airborne and infantry. The more static uses will still be held by the Ma Duce, but the longest-serving military weapon since the Brown Bess musket is about to go into light duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LW50MG

[maddox]

In short, a re-engineered Ma Deuce, using more modern materials and the acces to computer aided design to make it lighter and tighter.

It speaks volumes the old cartridge is retained.

[Carthaginian]

In short, a re-engineered Ma Deuce, using more modern materials and the acces to computer aided design to make it lighter and tighter.

It speaks volumes the old cartridge is retained.

I'm not sure if it is just a 're-engineered' M2. I don't know whether or not, for instance, the 'headspace and timing' adjustments that were a constant necessity (and annoyance) to .50 cal gunners everywhere will be a part of this weapon's design.

As for the cartridge, if John Moses Browning designed it... it is timeless.
The man was a genius in the truest sense of the word.

[Tanthalas]

Marek, nothing personel, but I can tell you never went to the Marine Force Recon schools.  If you allow semi-automatics you may as well allow full automatics, as I can tell you that it takes a skilled individual about 20 minutes to convert a semi auto to a full auto with a file.  It would likley take Mario even less time in his shop.  Now there is an interesting point to be made about the firepower that the military has and if it could be efectivly used against the civilian population in the US atleast.  in our oath we promise to Protect the Constitution against all enemies Foreign and DOMESTIC.  also under the UCMJ we have the right (or responsibility as it realy is in the case of officers like myself) to refuse orders that we belive to be imoral or unconstitutional.  In the event of a "Civil War" I belive you would see likley half if not more of the military going over to the other side because they would refuse to fight "Civilians"

[Valles]

If the military splits, then each faction will have its own proper fighting edge.

If the military doesn't, then the 'insurrection' side will either be cripplingly outgunned, or buying military arms off the black market as fast as they can find them.

In either case, the state of gun ownership laws before things break open is a laughable irrelevance.

Gun control only matters inasmuch as it changes the stakes of the criminal-and-innocent game; lawbreakers have more familiarity and interest in the tools and skills of violence than the average citizen - it's simply more relevant to their lives. Criminals will always outgun - in the figurative sense of the word - J Random Citizen, because before their 'Fateful Meeting', Mr Hood will care and Mr Citizen won't... And the cops damn well should outgun the thugs. All that being the case, having guns available in the equation simply makes it easier for people to die.

That said, I don't think that the margins of that ease are wide enough to bother doing more than regulating - skills, safety awareness, and history, just like freaking drivers licenses require - those individuals who choose to make 'gun owner' one of their law-abiding hobbies.

[Marek Gutkowski]

Marek, nothing personel, but I can tell you never went to the Marine Force Recon schools.  If you allow semi-automatics you may as well allow full automatics, as I can tell you that it takes a skilled individual about 20 minutes to convert a semi auto to a full auto with a file.  It would likley take Mario even less time in his shop.  Now there is an interesting point to be made about the firepower that the military has and if it could be efectivly used against the civilian population in the US atleast.  in our oath we promise to Protect the Constitution against all enemies Foreign and DOMESTIC.  also under the UCMJ we have the right (or responsibility as it realy is in the case of officers like myself) to refuse orders that we belive to be imoral or unconstitutional.  In the event of a "Civil War" I belive you would see likley half if not more of the military going over to the other side because they would refuse to fight "Civilians"

Marine Force Recon School? No I did not, not to my knowledge anyway. ;D
I was in plain old Mechanized Infantry.
I am however very much aware of the fact that any/many semi-auto weapon can be    modified to fire full auto.

As for the second part.
My army historically dose not have that ability.
We swore to protect the borders and the country independence.
The only option given with in the military regulations is that we can say we do not understand an order or that we have no resources to do so.
We can our right not fallow an order if its unlawful.
However all orders are lawful if they come from high enough.

If I was ordered to shot at civilians in my own country my only option was to desert or mutiny, or be a murderer in my own eyes.
I was never given that order so I don't know what will have done.(That sentence cannot be grammatically correct)
As for actual situation when my country military was ordered to shoot civilians... Usually  each time it ended up with piles of dead bodies and no deserters.

As for a civil war.
Those who use the gun they legally owned before it started are the one using crappy guns. With Weapon stock piles counted in millions standard army rifle will not be a problem to acquire.  Add to it the fact that underground rifle manufacture is easy, Chechen's did it while Grozny was under Russian shells, and we did just that under occupation.       

[Carthaginian]

Criminals will always outgun - in the figurative sense of the word - J Random Citizen, because before their 'Fateful Meeting', Mr Hood will care and Mr Citizen won't...

On the one occasion I have found it necessary to draw (heard gunfire from someone being shot on the same block/sidewalk, drew and pushed date to cover but never saw guy who was picked up within 100' of me by cops) I DID care, and WOULD have fired had he had the mis-fortune to approach me.

On the three occasions a female friend of mine has had to draw (3 separate friends, not 1 three times) they always out gunned their assailant- in fact, two of the would-be rapists were foolish enough to bring knives to a gunfight. Only one fired, but she was happy to go to court and tell her side and things went smoothly enough.... especially since her assailant was busy explaining himself to the Almighty at the time rather than the judge.

Some citizens DO care- they are the ones who DON'T get taken advantage of.

[Tanthalas]

Carth I understand that example perfectly.  Remember I come from Wyoming, and possibly the only state with more guns per capita than us is Texas.  I grew up with firearms of every type, and I intend to bring my children up in the same atmosphere.  Guns dont kill people, People kill people.