Royalty/Presidents/Leaders/Etc.

[maddox]

Ok, digging up Nverse II memories/

First of all, Bavaria was landlocked in the Nverse II, so of less importance. 1905 and the switch to N3 gave us the idea to get another state worth playing. By getting a piece from France, Italia and Habsburg, Bavaria became plausible.

The 2 Prussian wars weren't worked out, and I'll have to make it work now.

Proposal.

The first Prussian/Franco war, as in the history was a nearly defeat for France, but by giving up colonial efforts in the Far East, money, material and troops could be send to France to turn the tide.

This set the possible German unification back. And from that moment France started to spend money, normaly ment for oriental expansion, on "Home defence", and pure bribery. 
Bavaria, officaly an ally of Prussia, was already in French pay when the second Prussian war kicked off.
Unfortunatly, the King and the kings family was not aware of the duplicity of their political underlings. The relavation of this during the start of the second Prussian war could have been the final crack that destroyed King Lugwig the Second already besieged sanity.

His disinterest in affairs of state strengthened by this and Lugwig II left all matters in the hands of the bribed politicians and military. And those did the bidding of their paymaster, France. Thereby betraying the Prussians, and making the second Prussian/Franco war lost a disaster for the uniting German Kingdoms.

[Ithekro]

Also could be related to a possible depopulation of the Germanic States due to colonization in the Pacific.  There had to be a sizable Prussian and others population in what is now the DKB for the Kaiser t have a stable place to go with even more population in the aftermath of two failed wars with France...a France that didn't have a large and powerful British Empire to keep it in check.

[maddox]

The big move to the Pacific was only after the defeat in the second Prussia/Franco war and the subsequent rise of the East Sea Confederacy.

That republican move did push out Kaiser Wilhelm from Prussia. And with him, a lot of loyal subjects.  The ACM ,payed by the French, accepted the Royal Prussian money and did their part of the moving.

[Sachmle]

Also could be related to a possible depopulation of the Germanic States due to colonization in the Pacific.  There had to be a sizable Prussian and others population in what is now the DKB for the Kaiser t have a stable place to go with even more population in the aftermath of two failed wars with France...a France that didn't have a large and powerful British Empire to keep it in check.

The big move to the Pacific was only after the defeat in the second Prussia/Franco war and the subsequent rise of the East Sea Confederacy.

That republican move did push out Kaiser Wilhelm from Prussia. And with him, a lot of loyal subjects.  The ACM ,payed by the French, accepted the Royal Prussian money and did their part of the moving.

I've always presumed that the majority of the population in Neu Brandenburg was 'native' and that they were repressed (Just like Valles wants ;)) by the industrially powerful/advanced Prussian aristocracy and their pet troops who defected with them after the fall of Berlin. Still can't quite figure out how they built up so much so fast (1887-1907= 20yrs) to have

Location            Population     BP      IC
Fatherland          38             7.7     38

by then. Some things just won't make sense here.

[Valles]

I had, actually, been assuming something more along the lines of a wholesale replacement of the Maori population, who in turn took ship to Mayan, which given polynesian migratory patterns and population bases elsewhere, would have been relatively empty and needed an explanation for filling properly.

But I'm quite willing to go with outright population growth for that purpose, honestly.

Amusingly, this ends up totally reversing my interpretations of the patterns of the Swiss and German states. I can't say I don't like it that way. ^_^

[Ithekro]

Earliest German influence in the Pacific (historically) was in the mid-1850s with trade companies leading to colonial efforts in the early 1880s.

However with the removal of the British and inclusion of Swiss/Norman interests from an earlier time, one might suppose that the Prussians and other Germanic States might have been interested earlier or to a different extent.  We also have no way of knowing what qualifies as a native population and what is just an influx of people from another land at a much earlier date.  We have the extremely random existance of human recorded history going back much farther in Navalism due to the active use of Tolkien based mythology.  Rohan is around 8,700 years old and has a recorded history via Gondor of an additional 6,541 years (roughly, the line of kings can probably only be trace back 6,279 years to Bëor, eldest of the Fathers of Man).  Thus in Navalism, human history can be tracked, at least in some parts of the world, back 15,000 years.  (Yes, I had to look it up)

[Valles]

And just think; if I were setting up Maoria again, I'd build it as a freakin' Dinotopia expy.

Fifteen thousand years isn't that bad at all, really. ^_^

[Ithekro]

Rohan (for our purposes) came from the debate on having an alternate history world or a fantasy world.  The vote leaned more to semi-fantasy (Earth with changes, but the laws of physics and general concepts as we know them still exist...no vampire nations, aliens, werewolves, or elves (aside from in mythology) were to be used in "present day" Earth)., so I threw down Rohan as a "as far as I'm willing to push this idea within the bounds of reason" country.  Rohan was the least mythical of the nations of Middle Earth and thus the most human to work from.  Also intentionally has been given Native American traits as time has gone on so that it can fit in more with some established history.

One thing about your Dinotopia idea though...the map of that place might just fit Maoria...its not all that different from what we have now...though I can't say on its scale right now.  At least in terms of geography.  Weather conditions and other factors would be based more on planetary norms I would think.

[Walter]

I think that if you have a nation where everybody is like Elizabeth Báthory (or worse), you could call it a 'vampire' nation (though I would call it Habsburg). :D

As for the others, it is not that difficult to apply them while the person(s)/being(s) in question are still 100% human or existing animal.

[Ithekro]

True.

On the subject at hand, all humans grow old a die at some point (rather than everyone getting assasinated or otherwise killed), so eventually the royal world leaders will be replaced with heirs and presidents will be replaced in elections.  Dictators will died and be replaced either with their chosen sucessor or by a rival.  It is just how things work.

[Valles]

One thing about your Dinotopia idea though...the map of that place might just fit Maoria...its not all that different from what we have now...though I can't say on its scale right now.  At least in terms of geography.  Weather conditions and other factors would be based more on planetary norms I would think.

I'm pretty sure Dinotopia will fit inside Maoria's 'footprint'; IIRC it's only a couple hundred miles across. The current outline of Maoria would then be the shape of the various barrier islands and reefs surrounding the 'main island', where the Polynesians who came on their own would have been allowed to settle, including the exiled Maori. Even the preservation of the dinosaur angle would be, IMHO, possible - probably not in the wide profusion of species seen in the books, but something like a dozen or so species recognizably descended from the most famous groups - a civilization that's deliberately limited itself to that one island so that natural evolution and ecological processes can happen undisturbed save for the occaisional sampling mission.

But unless y'all're going to hand me a wide-spectrum retcon license, it's entirely an academic point.

[TexanCowboy]

1. The King of New Zion abdicates and his line permanently renounces the throne of New Zion.  Members of the Council of Elders appointed prior to 1 January 1914 shall resign, and not seek or accept re-appointment to the Council or other senior government bodies.

His line renounces the throne, that is his descendants, not his parents.

They've also not done any of the highlighted items in the rest of the treaty to my knowledge either.

As I told, ctw before, all those items would have been done. I left New Zion about that time so I didn't actually go ahead and do it formally, but it would have been done, no reason not to do so.

And I must point out that my, and the Jewish people, trace their family maternally, and that it refers to her directly.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Ok, digging up Nverse II memories/

First of all, Bavaria was landlocked in the Nverse II, so of less importance. 1905 and the switch to N3 gave us the idea to get another state worth playing. By getting a piece from France, Italia and Habsburg, Bavaria became plausible.

The 2 Prussian wars weren't worked out, and I'll have to make it work now.

Proposal.

The first Prussian/Franco war, as in the history was a nearly defeat for France, but by giving up colonial efforts in the Far East, money, material and troops could be send to France to turn the tide.

This set the possible German unification back. And from that moment France started to spend money, normaly ment for oriental expansion, on "Home defence", and pure bribery. 
Bavaria, officaly an ally of Prussia, was already in French pay when the second Prussian war kicked off.
Unfortunatly, the King and the kings family was not aware of the duplicity of their political underlings. The relavation of this during the start of the second Prussian war could have been the final crack that destroyed King Lugwig the Second already besieged sanity.

His disinterest in affairs of state strengthened by this and Lugwig II left all matters in the hands of the bribed politicians and military. And those did the bidding of their paymaster, France. Thereby betraying the Prussians, and making the second Prussian/Franco war lost a disaster for the uniting German Kingdoms.

Well historically, Maximillian II, 1811-1864, tried to isolate Prussia, and allied with Austria to do so.  Indeed, between siding with Napolean to taking Austria's side in 1866, Bavaria was fairly anti-Prussia. He backed the reform of the German confederation, and if one deducts the North German confederation...Greater Bavaria is the successor.

OTL Maximillian's son Ludwig II "The mad" was not interested in running things. His brother Otto was "mad" and locked up, but Ludwig II was likely just odd and so framed and murdered by said political underlings.  Prince Luitpold demanded a doctor's verdict, likely for appearances.  Fitting into Navalism, it could be Lugwig II was to ally with the Prussians (since they would fund his castles), and he was declared insane and deposed by the more traditional pro-French/anti Prussian faction. Prince Luitpold would be regent and back France.

If Luitpold was directly involved in that, it would explain the Chill in DKB-Bavarian relations until his passing.

This doesn't explain why, if a willing ally, or merely staying out of the war, Bavaria was reduced to a French puppet, or how it wound up with the Princely County of Hohenzollern and Province of Schliesen.

Also could be related to a possible depopulation of the Germanic States due to colonization in the Pacific.  There had to be a sizable Prussian and others population in what is now the DKB for the Kaiser t have a stable place to go with even more population in the aftermath of two failed wars with France..

Some time ago I believe it was noted that the populations for Hesse (and Thuringia ?) were absent... or some such. I was figuring lots of fighting there in the 2nd Franco-Prussia and mass exodus from ruined lands and political upheaval.  I've backfilled Hesse for my part. 

Netherlands: Queen Wilhelmina (?)

That should probably be the Prime minister. The Queen's role is more limited and  Korpen didn't feature his Royalty. Original Time Line : While a strong place in Dutch govt as adviser and final signer of laws,  her influence was behind the scenes, and depended on how pliable her ministers were. In this time frame she was very popular at home and well thought of abroad. She was also widely believed to be extremely wealthy.

[Desertfox]

And I must point out that my, and the Jewish people, trace their family maternally, and that it refers to her directly.

Really? All the genealogies in the bible are paternally. Kings traced their line to King David, not Bathsheba. Priesthood was from father to son, and widows married near relatives of their husbands to keep their name.

But that doesn't really matter. The treaty writers said HIS line, so that's their problem.

[Guinness]

I am not Jewish, though I've dated my fair share of Jewish girls...

I think we're confusing two things here:

1. The idea that to be a Jew, one's mother must be a Jew and
2. Inheritance in general.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

At any rate, I have a sense that the Italians have little patience for such hair splitting. I also suspect that those nations that went out of their way via diplomatic means to prevent New Zion from being dismembered by the Italians would not be amused either.