Small BB

[P3D]

Nah, I just could not find waterjet propulsion. Which, surprisingly, was tried in the 1870s and found inefficient.

[Walter]

IIRC there was a site... somewhere... where I read that a few nations (French, Germans and British I believe) had been working on it in the 19th century without much success. I believe it mentioned that the Brits had a coast guard vessel with that propulsion but I could be wrong about that.

Unfortunately I have no idea where that site is or if it still exists. :(

[maddox]

Another attempt. With thanks to Carthaginian.

Repulse mini, French Light Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   18.000 t light; 19.234 t standard; 21.098 t normal; 22.589 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 78,74 ft (Bulges 91,86 ft) x 24,28 ft (normal load)
   170,00 m / 169,00 m x 24,00 m (Bulges 28,00 m)  x 7,40 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.504 lbs / 4.311 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   338,22 ft / 103,09 m   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,50" / 38 mm   338,22 ft / 103,09 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      13,0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34.706 shp / 25.891 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.355 tons

Complement:
   874 - 1.137

Cost:
   £3,688 million / $14,752 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.047 tons, 5,0%
   Armour: 7.632 tons, 36,2%
      - Belts: 3.473 tons, 16,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 469 tons, 2,2%
      - Armament: 1.708 tons, 8,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1.767 tons, 8,4%
      - Conning Tower: 214 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1.293 tons, 6,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.679 tons, 36,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.098 tons, 14,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30.450 lbs / 13.812 Kg = 25,4 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 6,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 18,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,597
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,92 ft / 7,90 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (60%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (19%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,20 ft / 4,94 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,9%
   Waterplane Area: 31.846 Square feet or 2.959 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 815 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,31
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Marek Gutkowski]

There is a general consensus of 6 gun ships having gunnery difficulties.
I'd rather have 8x305mm that 6x340mm 

[Carthaginian]

There is a general consensus of 6 gun ships having gunnery difficulties.
I'd rather have 8x305mm that 6x340mm 

There is also a general consensus that a 12" gun wouldn't be able to kill a modern BB.

[Sachmle]

There is a general consensus of 6 gun ships having gunnery difficulties.
I'd rather have 8x305mm that 6x340mm  

There is also a general consensus that a 12" gun wouldn't be able to kill a modern BB.

Should an 18k BB be expected to kill a modern BB though? Shouldn't it be expected to kill a modern cruiser/older BB and require the enemy to commit a modern BB to counter it, thereby tying up his/her valuable resources?

This shouldn't be seen as a fleet unit, but a glorified CDBB that CAN fill in at the end of the line IF in dire straits.

[Guinness]

What would two more guns cost? 2000ish tons? I think it would be worth it.

[maddox]

I just tried, and it can be done for 1Kton, but that sacrifices the stability to the absolute minimum(but that can be solved with the trim tab) and seakeeping isn't up to par for French standards. On the other hand, only 19Kton for something that can stand in the battleline, for a short while at least.

Repulse mini, French Light Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   19.000 t light; 20.469 t standard; 22.395 t normal; 23.936 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 78,74 ft (Bulges 93,50 ft) x 25,59 ft (normal load)
   170,00 m / 169,00 m x 24,00 m (Bulges 28,50 m)  x 7,80 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 12.052 lbs / 5.467 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   338,22 ft / 103,09 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,50" / 38 mm   338,22 ft / 103,09 m   24,00 ft / 7,32 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      13,0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 35.881 shp / 26.767 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.467 tons

Complement:
   914 - 1.189

Cost:
   £4,289 million / $17,155 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.326 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 7.694 tons, 34,4%
      - Belts: 3.086 tons, 13,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 451 tons, 2,0%
      - Armament: 2.178 tons, 9,7%
      - Armour Deck: 1.757 tons, 7,8%
      - Conning Tower: 223 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1.337 tons, 6,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.293 tons, 37,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.395 tons, 15,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27.854 lbs / 12.634 Kg = 23,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 19,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,591
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,93 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,92 ft / 7,90 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (60%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (19%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,20 ft / 4,94 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104,5%
   Waterplane Area: 31.657 Square feet or 2.941 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 869 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,35
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Kaiser Kirk]

It's now looking like one of the options the Bavarians have been looking at to field something to anchor their cruisers against anything less than a true BB. However I don't think I will wind up choosing that variant. Not quite to my needs.

[TexanCowboy]

Would it be the mini-BB built by the Dutch in WW?

[Kaiser Kirk]

The Ijelsijk class ?  Not quite, both different engine tech and design goals. Size wise they come out similar, but I was tending towards 8x330/345mm rather than 6x380mm. Many of the designs were working out to about 19-23k tons, but I have designs running up to as much as 40k just as concept explorations.  Bavaria's need for such things is, however, just a bit limited, so # built will be 0 - 2, depending on events.