Small BB

[maddox]

What are the minimum specs to have a Ship that can be called a BB?

I found this.

[Tanthalas]

IDK if they would be useable BBs even anymore.  I know they were the smallest Dreads ever though, with alot of asociated issues. Here however is what you get if you sim her exactly with the Dimensions in the Wikipedia listing.

Ultra Light, Experimental Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   12,600 t light; 13,334 t standard; 14,238 t normal; 14,961 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   434.70 ft / 434.70 ft x 79.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
   132.50 m / 132.50 m x 24.08 m  x 7.77 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
   Weight of broadside 7,641 lbs / 3,466 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   282.56 ft / 86.12 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   152.13 ft / 46.37 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   282.56 ft / 86.12 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   282.56 ft / 86.12 m   23.41 ft / 7.14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,133 shp / 15,019 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,627 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   651 - 847

Cost:
   £2.949 million / $11.797 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 955 tons, 6.7 %
   Armour: 5,550 tons, 39.0 %
      - Belts: 2,497 tons, 17.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 367 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 1,657 tons, 11.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 903 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 127 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 774 tons, 5.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,321 tons, 37.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,638 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,844 lbs / 8,548 Kg = 21.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.569
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.85 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.60 ft / 5.06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,399 Square feet or 2,267 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 754 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.21
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Guinness]

Actually your main belt is too tall compared to historical. Espana had only a ridiculously short 2 meter tall main belt.

I can see some use for ships such as these, but for most minor powers such as OTL Spain, I suspect that big armored cruisers would have more overall utility. Spain certainly seemed to get a lot more use out of Canarias.

[Sachmle]

Tan: She's also to light (15,700t normal) and the engines are to new (1909 laid down vs your 1920 sim) and she had 101.6 (~102)/4" secondaries not 4.5" with 20 total not 16, and there were some 47mm(3 pounder) guns and light (7.7mm probably) mgs. Main battery shell weight was 850lbs not 864lbs, secondarys were 31lbs. I think you got pretty close, and I had a nice one until my computer just shut itself off for no reason.

[Tanthalas]

Actually your main belt is too tall compared to historical. Espana had only a ridiculously short 2 meter tall main belt.

Actualy Guinness, most ships of the era we are in had stupid short belts (or atleast thats how we see them)  Hood had a 9' main belt which while short wasnt alot shorter than the 12' belts on the german ships. 

as to changes from OTL, I took a few liberties with some issues I felt it had (and the engine was intentional since Mario was considering building somthing like her)

[maddox]

Glorious France isn't into BC's. But to do some of the things, I see need for cheapers vessel than the Montmedies or the Occitanies.

I could do a repeat of the Bretagnes, but with 25Kton, they are a tad bigger than what I want to spend on another 6 ship class.

Ideal I would end up with something only 70m long, so that lilliputter can use the support bases. But such a vessel can be at best a monitor. Not what I need.

That is why I asked, what is the smallest ship possible and still calling it a BB without
;D ;D ;D ;D?

[Ithekro]

Coastal Battleships could be smaller ships armed with Battleship guns and designed to fight other capital ships (rather than a monitor of the time period which is designed to bombard land targets from areas battleships can't enter).  This could get you a pre-dreadnought sized vessel or something along the lines of a heavier built Pocket Battleship (heavier armor, slower speed, and maybe heavier guns).  The Germans classified theirs as Armored Cruisers when they built them around 1930, and properly were more like Armored Cruisers than Battleships due to the cruiser type armor and relative size...only the 11" guns put them into Battleship territory.

[maddox]

12-15 Ton then.

Main guns as big as possible, or sleightly smaller to have more of'm?

Secundaries, good enough to take care, just enough to have them or non, depending on escorts.

Speed? Good enough to follow the heavies of the French fleet, or even slower?

[Ithekro]

You might be able to get something on around 6,000 tons if you don't care about speed.  Though a 14 knot battleship with four 12" guns and 9" of belt and 2" of deck armor might not be France's cup of tea or glass of wine.

[maddox]

Getting an idea
Simming it out now.

Minimax, French CCBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   10.000 t light; 10.822 t standard; 11.542 t normal; 12.118 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393,70 ft / 390,42 ft x 49,21 ft (Bulges 72,18 ft) x 21,33 ft (normal load)
   120,00 m / 119,00 m x 15,00 m (Bulges 22,00 m)  x 6,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.366,87lbs / 620,00kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 8.763 lbs / 3.975 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10,0" / 254 mm   242,06 ft / 73,78 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19.340 shp / 14.428 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.296 tons

Complement:
   556 - 723

Cost:
   £2,978 million / $11,911 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 963 tons, 8,3%
   Armour: 3.583 tons, 31,0%
      - Belts: 1.152 tons, 10,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.487 tons, 12,9%
      - Armour Deck: 834 tons, 7,2%
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 721 tons, 6,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.433 tons, 38,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.542 tons, 13,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10.681 lbs / 4.845 Kg = 8,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
   Metacentric height 1,9 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 22,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,97
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,672
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,41 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Forecastle (23%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (40%):      21,33 ft / 6,50 m (13,12 ft / 4,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79,1%
   Waterplane Area: 15.020 Square feet or 1.395 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 796 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,22
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe
25 ton crew comfort

[The Rock Doctor]

The hull form's basically a cheat to avoid deck armor.  The overall beam might not be adequate for the turret diameter, let alone the waterline beam.

[maddox]

In theory the barbettes could be part of the hull itself, diminishing any torpedo resilience to nothing.

But, can we call Minimax a BB, albeit a flawed one?

[The Rock Doctor]

Sure, we can call it a battleship. 

If you have an ignorant enough media, you could call any armed ship a battleship...

[maddox]

What can't Minimax do, what Valeur can?

[P3D]

What can't Minimax do, what Valeur can?

Being already paid for.