New New Swiss Caiptal Ships

[Valles]

I'll give the story from my POV tommorow.

Looking forwards to it.

Oh, and, comparing the United States to the Bardiches or Kerykeions, they can indeed successfully kite them to death, and without much trouble - as should be expected of a 16" ship facing a 30cm one.

But playing around with Big Gun, for ease of use, gives Cross Mirage an immune zone against the Swiss 16"/L40 of between 10,700 and 18,300 meters, while United States would have... none at all... in return.

Constitution, obviously, is even worse off.

On top of this, Maori fire control and gunnery techniques are simply and entirely superior.

I don't think that Cross Mirage, alone, could defeat the entire planned building program, but she should be able to handle two or three without any worry bigger than a Golden BB.

[Ithekro]

Which basically means either the Swiss need to practice long range fire (really good fire control), or get in close where they can do serious damage.  Both options have problems.  Longer range fire means fewer shells hitting the target even if you do manage to straddle it.  Close in fire means you have to get there while under fire from the enemy vessel.

[ctwaterman]

I have always had problems with the concept of the faster ship always being able to hold the range at optimum and pound the opponent to pieces at will.   It doesnt work because the enemy ship might have the ability to shoot back and if their Fire Control is as good as yours and they practice long range gunnery as well then both sides get hit.  And at that Point the Ship with less speed probably didnt give up armor for speed.

Its the Old Tripod of Armor, Fire Power and Speed you cant have all three in equal measures on a truely affordable frame.   Unless your nation is really huge or your willing to build stuff like the Yamato's and hope they can win a fight 2 on 1 vs the enemies ships.  And even then the Yamato's took the Japanese so long to build that buy the time they commissioned the Ships they were built to fight the US Standards were nolonger the US Premier Battle Ships the North Carolina Class BB had replaced them and the 1st of Iowa class BB were already under construction.

The Only thing  a Faster Ship can Guarantee is that it can usually avoid the fight if it wants to or can.  But if it has to defend a port or the Enemy can Invade then it has to fight.  Or if it wants to get past an enemy fleet to get to thier ports it has to fight.... either way eventaully it has to fight  ;)

[Carthaginian]

DF,

Speaking as someone who has been a part of an occupation force in which foreign insurgents and a moderate percentage (20% or so) of the local population were actively opposing you, I can tell you straight up that you have an incredibly flawed picture of what you can achieve. Notice, if you will, the utter and total inability of either the Afghan or Iraqi insurgency to dislodge or even truly damage the forces that are currently in those nations.

As long as 1.) proper supply lines can be maintained by the conquering force 2.) manpower can be maintained by the conquering force, and 3.) safe havens can be maintained by the conquering force, your 'well-armed civilians with military hardware' aren't going to be able to dislodge them. People on the dissenting side of the wars currently going on talk about 'massive casualties' while people who have actually fought in wars (past or present) giggle through their tears at how cheaply a military conquest has actually been accomplished- while inflicting an almost 0 level of collateral damage.*

If someone the size of the CSA attempted to invade the Swiss, it would be long and bloody to try a D-day style landing and conquest solely by land. Thus we'd not attempt that. Starvation by blockade of a preselected island group would be instituted... and repeated until the population is actually EAGER to see the invading armies come ashore and depose the regime that caused all their suffering. Now, how long the welcome would last before that population wanted a degree of self-determination that might not agree with the invading army's agenda might be debatable... but by that time, logistical measures would be in place that would make dislodging the invaders virtually impossible- again, see Iraq.

Should someone like Rohan attempt conquest of the Swiss... well, just realize that the same result would be achieved a lot faster, with a lot fewer steps. The outcome would be the same, just more certain.

Now, add in the fact that many nations on N-verse would find a MUCH higher level of collateral damage acceptable than current military thought allows. I'm not even talking 'concentration camps' and 'collective responsibility'- I'm just talking about the difference in acceptable margins of error for, say, a 15" shell versus those of a laser-guided bomb.

Your islands would be conquered, your people decimated, and your forces would likely be unable to fight anything but 'covering actions' much like Japan's 'battle cruiser line' as in WWII.


*I think it is a foregone conclusion that either side of the political debate can agree upon that 98% of all civilians who are killed or injured in the current conflicts I am referencing are not killed by military forces, but by the irregular forces opposing them who seem to delight in using scare tactics aimed at soft civilian targets. Like military casualties, given the length and tempo of operations, casualty rates are as close to 0 as can be expected to be achieved.

[Desertfox]

The Swiss Home Islands are...supposedly about 700 miles across at the most and 450 miles from top top to bottom, and as pointed out, rather jagged, the core area being roughly 300 by 300 miles  (if the original cast of Numenor is used)  If I recall this was partly shot down and the once large island was broken up into smaller ones covering the same area, but with probably half the total land mass.  Probably.

Right now, I would put the Swiss Home Islands at about the size of the Philippines.

But playing around with Big Gun, for ease of use, gives Cross Mirage an immune zone against the Swiss 16"/L40 of between 10,700 and 18,300 meters, while United States would have... none at all... in return.

Question is, how many Cross Mirages will you have? And can they shoot accurately through a smoke screen? Oh and the ships will be using 16"/L45.

On top of this, Maori fire control and gunnery techniques are simply and entirely superior.

Not really. New Switzerland is one of the best countries at long range shooting. The Constitutions were going to get 12x12", but I upgunned to 8x16" just so they would have better long range weapons.

The Only thing  a Faster Ship can Guarantee is that it can usually avoid the fight if it wants to or can.  But if it has to defend a port or the Enemy can Invade then it has to fight.  Or if it wants to get past an enemy fleet to get to thier ports it has to fight.... either way eventaully it has to fight

Exactly, a Constitution hiding is worth more than a Rodney sunk. The Swiss do not subscribe to the idea that there are any objectives worth fighting for at any cost. Right now the Swiss do not have anything that they will risk their fleet for.

As long as 1.) proper supply lines can be maintained by the conquering force 2.) manpower can be maintained by the conquering force, and 3.) safe havens can be maintained by the conquering force, your 'well-armed civilians with military hardware' aren't going to be able to dislodge them. People on the dissenting side of the wars currently going on talk about 'massive casualties' while people who have actually fought in wars (past or present) giggle through their tears at how cheaply a military conquest has actually been accomplished- while inflicting an almost 0 level of collateral damage.*

I didn't say it was impossible to occupy NS. I did say that it was not worth it.  Look at the logistics involved. The balance of forces. The technology available to both sides. And yes the Iraqi war is being fought quite efficiently.

Starvation by blockade of a preselected island group would be instituted... and repeated until the population is actually EAGER to see the invading armies come ashore and depose the regime that caused all their suffering.

Should someone like Rohan attempt conquest of the Swiss... well, just realize that the same result would be achieved a lot faster, with a lot fewer steps. The outcome would be the same, just more certain.

That is my weak point (in NS proper, not Australia). The question is, can you logistically maintain such a blockade? Look at the map. Can any ONE country pull it of alone? Could the US have done it in WWII without B-29s and USW?

[P3D]

Not really. New Switzerland is one of the best countries at long range shooting. The Constitutions were going to get 12x12", but I upgunned to 8x16" just so they would have better long range weapons.

There are about 15 countries that train their navies to excel at long range shooting. There is no reason why the NS should be better than the rest.

I didn't say it was impossible to occupy NS. I did say that it was not worth it.  Look at the logistics involved. The balance of forces. The technology available to both sides. And yes the Iraqi war is being fought quite efficiently.

It would definitely worth it. A mere ~1 million casualties and ~100BP to get
6BP capacity (after some rebuild). The occupation cost in case of an uncooperative civilian population would be the highest on the uncooperative civilian side, in the politically not so correct 1920s.

[Valles]

Question is, how many Cross Mirages will you have? And can they shoot accurately through a smoke screen? Oh and the ships will be using 16"/L45.

One; only one. I freely admit that she'd be defeated by superior numbers. And no, no more than a ship hidden by smoke could ever hope to hit her.

Not really. New Switzerland is one of the best countries at long range shooting. The Constitutions were going to get 12x12", but I upgunned to 8x16" just so they would have better long range weapons.

The Maori were the first country in the world to field a working centralized fire-control system good out to 12,000 meters. They have a design currently in service rated for accurate fire at 18,000; the Swiss equivalent is, what, three years from completion? By which point the Maori will certainly have working 24,000 meter control.

In terms of fire control and accuracy of gunnery, the Maori have peers - but no betters. And judging by the technology they bring to bear, I'm afraid that the Swiss are neither.

Exactly, a Constitution hiding is worth more than a Rodney sunk. The Swiss do not subscribe to the idea that there are any objectives worth fighting for at any cost. Right now the Swiss do not have anything that they will risk their fleet for.

...Interesting.

[Desertfox]

The Maori were the first country in the world to field a working centralized fire-control system good out to 12,000 meters. They have a design currently in service rated for accurate fire at 18,000; the Swiss equivalent is, what, three years from completion? By which point the Maori will certainly have working 24,000 meter control.

In terms of fire control and accuracy of gunnery, the Maori have peers - but no betters. And judging by the technology they bring to bear, I'm afraid that the Swiss are neither.

*grumbles about being screwed over by the tech tree...* And that was before the Maorians were around...

One; only one. I freely admit that she'd be defeated by superior numbers. And no, no more than a ship hidden by smoke could ever hope to hit her.

Unless said ship is shooting through the smoke using observers (be they blimps, destroyers, cruisers, planes, or zeppelins...). ;)

The Unfortunately for the Maroians they are one of the few countries NS CAN outbuild.

[Carthaginian]

That is my weak point (in NS proper, not Australia). The question is, can you logistically maintain such a blockade? Look at the map. Can any ONE country pull it of alone? Could the US have done it in WWII without B-29s and USW?

Can any one nation in N-verse do it?
Heck yeah! In fact, any nation in the 25+ BP range could safely wage a single-opponent war with the Swiss and win hands down. several in the same BP bracket could wage a winnable war, though it would be uglier and require good strategy (which the Swiss would, of course, deny anyone being able to out strategize them).

As for Australia... if ANY other war starts off, the Frianj would be all over the Swiss.
They'd be eager as all heck to trash what's left of the Swiss.

[Desertfox]

Yeah they can beat me. That's not the question. But can any one nation maintain a legal blockade of NS long enough to starve it into submission?

I would love to see Firanj try to fight a war across a desert the size of OTL US...

[TexanCowboy]

Franji wouldn't have to. Their equivelent of four Constitution's, two United States, and five Coastal BB's could blockade whatever is on Australia. With demoralized and unsupplied troops, the NS would soon give in to an assualt by 10 corps, or 500,000 men.

[Valles]

Unless said ship is shooting through the smoke using observers (be they blimps, destroyers, cruisers, planes, or zeppelins...).

IIRC, doing this in a useful fashion is the 1925 fire control tech, which we'll probably hit within a year or so of each other.

[Carthaginian]

Yeah they can beat me. That's not the question. But can any one nation maintain a legal blockade of NS long enough to starve it into submission?

I would love to see Firanj try to fight a war across a desert the size of OTL US...

Where do you get those figures?
The Australian continent on the World Map is not as big as the US... much less the 'desert' part. Given the placement of the Great Lakes, there is a very nice area of well-watered land that the Franj can use as support.

[TexanCowboy]

Yeah, for now, I really, really doubt that a destroyer could see through a smoke screen any better than a BB. If it get's close enough, it's going to be DEMOLISHED by those escorts with 8'' armour and 32 3'' guns.

[Desertfox]

Franji wouldn't have to. Their equivelent of four Constitution's, two United States, and five Coastal BB's could blockade whatever is on Australia. With demoralized and unsupplied troops, the NS would soon give in to an assualt by 10 corps, or 500,000 men.

The Firanji need some seagoing tugs if they want to ever get those coastal CBs near NS ports.  ;) Plus putting the bulk of the Firanj fleet within range of torpedo boats/submarines/mines, without escorts is not very smart. There is NO way you can starve Australia even if you blockade it, and that Firanji Army still has to cross the 3,000 miles of desert. Good Luck...

Where do you get those figures?
The Australian continent on the World Map is not as big as the US... much less the 'desert' part. Given the placement of the Great Lakes, there is a very nice area of well-watered land that the Franj can use as support.

OTL Australia is approximately the size of the continental US. N-verse Australia is even bigger, with the Swiss side alone being bigger than OTL Australia. See some of the maps wandering around.

IIRC, doing this in a useful fashion is the 1925 fire control tech, which we'll probably hit within a year or so of each other.

True, but I'll be the one with the capability to make full use of it (unless the battle is within range of Maorian zeppelins, but the Swiss are not that stupid).

Yeah, for now, I really, really doubt that a destroyer could see through a smoke screen any better than a BB. If it get's close enough, it's going to be DEMOLISHED by those escorts with 8'' armour and 32 3'' guns.

Take a look at my fleet. It is designed explicitly to wipe out battleline screens.