To Rebuild or Not to Rebuild

[ctwaterman]

Ok I have 5 Old 1906 Heavy Cruiser, they are in desperate need of a refit and some way to make them functional.  They are Slow, Old, have 10" guns.
Here is the link to the old Design.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=fa4a457db7e40ea2bfec97e76ebe6726&topic=1368.msg13066#msg13066

The New Design takes the Old 10" Tripples and replaces them with new 9.2" Tripples.  It also lenghtens the Bow and Amidships to allow for the placement of an additional turret.   The Ship is buldged to increase stability and to test torpedo Bulges.  I also added new Engines, Fire Control.  The Result is a mostly modern  26knot Armored Cruiser whose purpose would be to escort the battle line and engage enemy cruisers and torpedo boats.

Estimated Reconstruction costs:
Action:           $ Cost     BP Cost
Recon            2.1675     .867
Arn                1.032       .516
Machinery      3.164      1.582
Lengh            2.486      2.486
F.Control          .250        .250

Total:            9.099       6.568  And 11 Months

So is the ship below worth the effort I save roughly 3 BP per Ship on the rebuild but realistically next to know money.
So is it worth the effort?

Displacement:
   9,913 t light; 10,428 t standard; 10,985 t normal; 11,430 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   514.06 ft / 510.00 ft x 61.00 ft (Bulges 68.00 ft) x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   156.68 m / 155.45 m x 18.59 m (Bulges 20.73 m)  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      9 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x3 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1911 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline, all raised guns
   Weight of broadside 4,131 lbs / 1,874 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   292.33 ft / 89.10 m   9.37 ft / 2.86 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   217.65 ft / 66.34 m   9.37 ft / 2.86 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   292.33 ft / 89.10 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 42,453 shp / 31,670 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,002 tons

Complement:
   536 - 697

Cost:
   £1.002 million / $4.009 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 516 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 3,348 tons, 30.5 %
      - Belts: 1,654 tons, 15.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 854 tons, 7.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 755 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,582 tons, 14.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,067 tons, 37.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,072 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,611 lbs / 5,267 Kg = 29.8 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.482
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (30 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (21 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.57 ft / 4.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,395 Square feet or 1,895 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 610 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.40
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

250T 1912 Fire Control
25T Long Range Wireless
25T Spotlights and Star Shells

[Guinness]

For 26 knots, I don't think it's worth it. I'd say do a minimal refit and use them in second-line roles. They can still be battleline escorts.

Alternately, you could reboiler them only for 100% oil firing but keep the 21 knot speed and use the saved weight for FC and other modernization goodies. This would still cost a lot less than your proposed refit I think.

[ctwaterman]

To Escort the Battle Line they need to be faster then the Battle Line.... the New Battle Lines top speed is 22 Knots.  Honestly I can build a more modern ship for the $9 but I dont have enough BP to build 5 of them????

[Guinness]

Well, escort here means hang out with. I'm not sure that being able to maneuver a lot WRT the battleline really matters. These guys can just hang at the head and the tail of it and handle DDs and light cruisers, I suppose. Or they can be positioned to relay signals to DDs, etc. too.

The difference between 21 and 22 knots is slight, especially in any sea.

[The Rock Doctor]

What can be done without changing the hull dimensions - and is it worth doing?

Consider the scrap value of the ship when totalling the cost.  If you rebuild rather than scrap, you're also putting off income of what, about 1.2 BP and $ each.

[Desertfox]

Or you could sell them (via intermediaries) to NS. You would not have to worry about the ships, cause they wouldn't last long in Swiss service... ;D

[The Rock Doctor]

Cost - about $5.50 and 3.5 BP, would be my guess...


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1906 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   8,860 t light; 9,280 t standard; 9,953 t normal; 10,491 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   474.07 ft / 470.01 ft x 60.99 ft x 22.01 ft (normal load)
   144.50 m / 143.26 m x 18.59 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
      6 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x3 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3,808 lbs / 1,727 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.99" / 203 mm   269.39 ft / 82.11 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   4.02" / 102 mm   200.59 ft / 61.14 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   4.02" / 102 mm   269.39 ft / 82.11 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.99" / 203 mm   4.02" / 102 mm      7.99" / 203 mm
   2nd:   4.02" / 102 mm   2.01" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.01" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.99" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,000 shp / 23,872 Kw = 24.24 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,211 tons)

Complement:
   497 - 647

Cost:
   £0.877 million / $3.507 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 476 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 3,133 tons, 31.5 %
      - Belts: 1,623 tons, 16.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 686 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 745 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 80 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,192 tons, 12.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,558 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,093 tons, 11.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 5.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,324 lbs / 5,136 Kg = 22.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.552
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.71 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (30 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m (12.99 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (21 %):   12.99 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      12.99 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.56 ft / 4.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,044 Square feet or 1,862 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 572 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Jefgte]

With over 15yo, they are too old to be rebuilt.
With 6x10" & 21kts, they are perfectly correct for coastal defense or escort.
Rebuilt is not realy interresting.


Jef  ;)

[TexanCowboy]

I'll buy those, if you don't want them...

Jefgte, that's like calling the Blucher obsolete. It may have been older, but the thing was still damn powerful. This reminds me of the 30 year rule for capital ships...

[Jefgte]

...that's like calling the Blucher obsolete....

The last of the line ...


Jef  ;)

[Guinness]

...that's like calling the Blucher obsolete....

The last of the line ...


Jef  ;)

http://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/sinking_of_the_blucher.jpg

Just saying...

[TexanCowboy]

Yeah....didn't say that she wouldn't die. It's just that ships like those have their purposes. And they aren't suppose to take out battlecruisers.

[ctwaterman]

Ok I did look at simply putting modern guns on the ship 2 Tripple Turrets of 9.2" guns.....

The Point of adding fire control is to be able to effectively use it.... I feel that adding say the 1912 Fire Control out to 18,000 Yards would mean I need a gun designed to shoot those distances effectively ?????  Simply slapping Firecontrol onto a ships whose guns and turrets were designed to fire at targets a mere 6,000 yards or less away shouldnt really work.

What I am looking at here is a way to produce something I need more of Cruisers.
The one thing that the Empire needs is more decent cruisers.  I dont expect to have my cruisers go one on one with any major powers they can afford more and larger cruisers.   What I need is trade protection in Western Indian Ocean Along the African Coast and in the Rift Sea and Battle Line Escorts in the Med and Indian Oceans.

I dont see these ships getting sold because I dont seem to get the prices other peoples ships seem to get.  And I usually am offering to buy Old Ships mostly for their Scrap value.