For 1924

[Guinness]

Disagree: the South Dakotas were 680 feet long. This ship is 860 feet long. There should be plenty of room to set the turrets back toward a fuller part of the hull. Let's err on the side of caution and say the barbettes are 45 feet in diameter. Let's also say the TDS is 15 feet deep per beam. That means that you'd have a maximum 18.5 feet between the barbettes and TDS. Even up forward, you should still have 8 feet. This isn't alot, but it ought to fit. If we use a probably more reasonable 43 foot outside barbette diameter, there's more room, and I suspect those barbettes could go down as far as 42 feet.

[Jefgte]

This is quad x420...

Considere Yamato barbette diameter is really the minimum...


Jef

[Guinness]

Ok, so what was Yamato's barbette diameter? I don't have that anywhere handy at the moment.

[Sachmle]

Ok, so what was Yamato's barbette diameter? I don't have that anywhere handy at the moment.

IDK, but the French 13.4" quad was 39' ID.

[Nobody]

Ok, so what was Yamato's barbette diameter? I don't have that anywhere handy at the moment.

IDK, but the French 13.4" quad was 39' ID.

I'm pretty sure that the French had 33 cm = 13" guns.
Linearly scaled I get 49.7' (15.2 m ?) for the 16.5" quad.

[Sachmle]

Ok, so what was Yamato's barbette diameter? I don't have that anywhere handy at the moment.

IDK, but the French 13.4" quad was 39' ID.

I'm pretty sure that the French had 33 cm = 13" guns.
Linearly scaled I get 49.7' (15.2 m ?) for the 16.5" quad.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg13999#msg13999
P3D :
...
Tegethoff 3x12"/45 - ID 32' (9.75m) , OD 34' (10.5m), roller ring OD 28' (8.5m)
...
To get OD, just add twice the barbette armor and a bit

12" twin : 28'-30' OD

Kriegsmarine ships

The 11inch triples had an internal barbette diameter of 10.2m of 33.46ft.

The 15 inch twins were 10.0m and 32.81ft.

Looking at French deisgns
Bretagne 13.4" twin ~8.2m (27')
Lanquedoc 13.4" quad ~11.6m (39')

[maddox]

Dunkerque and Strasbourg carried 8 330 L50 guns.

The reason for this strange size is also documented. 1 Upgunship to the Italians with the rebored 305mm to 320mm guns.

[Borys]

She is putting on weight like crazy :)

Heilige Nacht, Habsburgs Battleship laid down 1924
the long AND broad version

Displacement:
   50 400 t light; 53 134 t standard; 55 525 t normal; 57 438 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   860,70 ft / 860,00 ft x 115,00 ft x 30,00 ft (normal load)
   262,34 m / 262,13 m x 35,05 m  x 9,14 m

Armament:
      12 - 16,50" / 419 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1924 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1924 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1924 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3,50" / 88,9 mm guns in single mounts, 25,00lbs / 11,34kg shells, 1924 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1924 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 32 108 lbs / 14 564 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,5" / 343 mm   490,00 ft / 149,35 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   370,00 ft / 112,78 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Upper:   9,00" / 229 mm   490,00 ft / 149,35 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 88% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   490,00 ft / 149,35 m   47,00 ft / 14,33 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm   1,50" / 38 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm   0,50" / 13 mm      0,50" / 13 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4,25" / 108 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 105 133 shp / 78 429 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 304 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 808 - 2 351

Cost:
   £16,464 million / $65,858 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 651 tons, 6,6%
   Armour: 18 097 tons, 32,6%
      - Belts: 7 106 tons, 12,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 278 tons, 2,3%
      - Armament: 3 196 tons, 5,8%
      - Armour Deck: 5 984 tons, 10,8%
      - Conning Tower: 533 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 3 543 tons, 6,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 24 608 tons, 44,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 126 tons, 9,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 0,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     69 672 lbs / 31 603 Kg = 31,0 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,4 ft / 2,3 m
   Roll period: 17,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,655
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 2,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -2,00 ft / -0,61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20,00 ft / 6,10 m
      - Forecastle (2%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (10%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,02 ft / 5,49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,3%
   Waterplane Area: 76 111 Square feet or 7 071 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 256 lbs/sq ft or 1 247 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,18
      - Longitudinal: 0,95
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Warning: Mount cannot be below freeboard deck - 2nd battery

[Guinness]

From a couple of decent line drawings I can find online, I get something between these two measurements for Yamato's barbettes:

14.235 meters (46.7 feet)
13.68 meters (44.9 feet)

[Walter]

AotS: Yamato gives the barbette diameter as 15 meters (~49 feet)

[P3D]

The reason for this strange size is also documented. 1 Upgunship to the Italians with the rebored 305mm to 320mm guns.

Dunkerque was laid down earlier than the Italian rebuilts, so that's not true.

About barbette diameter: when I drew the quad 16" Orange BBs, IIRC I scaled up Richelieu's quad 15" turret, and my OD is 44'. So for 16.5" OD should be 45-46'. In those ships, the TDS just fits - the high BC helps here a lot.

Thoughts: Upper  belt - forget it, add a few inches to the, barbette, turret face and esp. "other gunhouse". 7" will be penetrated by any large-caliber AP shells at relatively high obliquities.

I'd also forget the mixed coal-oil firing.
Clean up what is the configuration of the secondaries- if they are turreted, use double turrets.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Thank you for the comments.
So, I gather the ship is big enough for those three quads?

Secondaries - SS goes crazy over "mount&hoist" or "turret&barbette" being placed below the freeboard and redifnes them as single casemattes. I have to edit the file manually.

So there are six turrets amidships, three per side, one on weather deck level, and two in recesses below.

The 25% coal thing is intentional, it is to allow replenishment in out of the way places.
I got some feedback on barbette size:
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39912&mforum=warshipprojects#39912

Campbell has no barbette figure but gives roller path diameters of 13.05m and 11.5m.
For other large turrets around 1940  the barbette internal diameter is about 10 or 11% greater than the "roller path  diameter" but that may not be specified as external, internal or mean.
Say 14.5m
Battleship Yamato, Anatomy of the Ship series: 1/600 plan
, external diameter 2.65cm + 0.5 cm  
say 16m
Same source: Barbette internal diameter (from 1/150 elevation of turret)  13.8m

Borys

[P3D]

Large enough.
If the ship is on a "top" of a wave. The turrets/mounts in recesses still would be wet. Contemporary waterproofing technologies are just not that advanced. Not for moving parts.
"single mounts in recesses" are almost the same as casemates.
I am currently lazy to check the french MoD site for Richelieu drawings which would be the best bet.

[maddox]

The freeboard thing is annoying, but Springsharp didn't take in account our strange ideas.

2 options are available.
1 simming the main gun turrets as raised, and use low freeboard, messing up the seakeeping.
2 don't care about that and sim everyting at deck level.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The 7" "other gunhouse" are OTL Bismark figures ...

As to secondaries - I took Maddox's advice #2


Heilige Nacht, Habsburgs Battleship laid down 1924

Displacement:
   50 400 t light; 53 134 t standard; 55 525 t normal; 57 438 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   860,70 ft / 860,00 ft x 115,00 ft x 30,00 ft (normal load)
   262,34 m / 262,13 m x 35,05 m  x 9,14 m

Armament:
      12 - 16,50" / 419 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1924 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1924 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1924 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3,50" / 88,9 mm guns in single mounts, 25,00lbs / 11,34kg shells, 1924 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1924 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 32 108 lbs / 14 564 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,5" / 343 mm   490,00 ft / 149,35 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   370,00 ft / 112,78 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Upper:   9,00" / 229 mm   490,00 ft / 149,35 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 88% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   490,00 ft / 149,35 m   47,00 ft / 14,33 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   7,00" / 178 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm   1,50" / 38 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm   0,50" / 13 mm      0,50" / 13 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4,25" / 108 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 105 133 shp / 78 429 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 525nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4 304 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 808 - 2 351

Cost:
   £16,464 million / $65,858 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 651 tons, 6,6%
   Armour: 18 120 tons, 32,6%
      - Belts: 7 106 tons, 12,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 278 tons, 2,3%
      - Armament: 3 219 tons, 5,8%
      - Armour Deck: 5 984 tons, 10,8%
      - Conning Tower: 533 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 3 543 tons, 6,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 24 585 tons, 44,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 126 tons, 9,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 0,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     69 270 lbs / 31 420 Kg = 30,8 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 10,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,655
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 2,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -2,00 ft / -0,61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20,00 ft / 6,10 m
      - Forecastle (2%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (10%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (13%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,02 ft / 5,49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,3%
   Waterplane Area: 76 111 Square feet or 7 071 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 255 lbs/sq ft or 1 246 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,17
      - Longitudinal: 0,95
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Warning: Calibre too large for machine gun - 5th battery