Confederate Ship Designs: 1919 and Beyond...

[The Rock Doctor]

I bow to the Soviets' collective wisdom.

And I'll be ordering more minesweepers.

[TexanCowboy]

Not like my report didn't recommend it anyway...

What, Soviet wisdom? This calls for Rocky to take a test drive in a Soviet car, which.......er.....has steering like it's set in concerte.

[The Rock Doctor]

...beats having an accelerator with a mind of its own.

[ledeper]

A small inkick:
Can also be used as a scout cruiser/light cruiser

Minecruiser/Sweeper batch 3, Esc Minecruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   5.991 t light; 6.197 t standard; 7.051 t normal; 7.734 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   488,46 ft / 485,56 ft x 52,49 ft x 22,31 ft (normal load)
   148,88 m / 148,00 m x 16,00 m  x 6,80 m

Armament:
      6 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 748 lbs / 339 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,72" / 120 mm   314,96 ft / 96,00 m   10,20 ft / 3,11 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   314,96 ft / 96,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,97" / 50 mm   0,79" / 20 mm            -
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 48.703 shp / 36.332 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.537 tons

Complement:
   384 - 500

Cost:
   £1,183 million / $4,732 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 93 tons, 1,3 %
   Armour: 1.499 tons, 21,3 %
      - Belts: 841 tons, 11,9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 36 tons, 0,5 %
      - Armour Deck: 585 tons, 8,3 %
      - Conning Tower: 37 tons, 0,5 %
   Machinery: 1.815 tons, 25,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.234 tons, 31,7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.060 tons, 15,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 5,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6.833 lbs / 3.099 Kg = 66,4 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,03
   Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 15,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,434
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,04 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Stern:      13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,88 ft / 4,23 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 16.054 Square feet or 1.491 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 414 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,44
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc weight:
FC 100 tns
L/R W/L 25 tns
Mines 200 tns
Sweeping gear:25 tns

[TexanCowboy]

You have a Toyota?

[Carthaginian]

Here's the 'heavy' minelayer I was talking about- mercantile standard construction with a LARGE (over 600 mines!) capacity and plenty of range (an unfortunate necessity to balance out the weight of the mines). Diesel propulsion. And perhaps most importantly... cheap, cheap cheap!!!

NOTE: the massive number of machine guns are intended for use against stray mines or while sweeping enemy fields. They are not intended to be used for AA weapons- indeed, I'm thinking about single-mounting them.

laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,554 t standard; 2,316 t normal; 2,926 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   270.00 ft / 265.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
   82.30 m / 80.77 m x 15.24 m  x 3.66 m

Armament:
     1 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading gun in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline forward
     2 - 1.58" / 40.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.97lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
     10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 84 lbs / 38 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -         2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,000 shp / 2,984 Kw = 16.89 kts
   Range 7,265nm at 16.89 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,372 tons

Complement:
   166 - 217

Cost:
   £0.181 million / $0.725 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 0.5 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 149 tons, 6.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 713 tons, 30.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 816 tons, 35.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 27.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,425 lbs / 2,461 Kg = 65.2 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 12.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.74

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.30 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.75 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (40 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m before break)
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.20 ft / 4.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,908 Square feet or 828 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 228 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 278 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.35
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

$0.375 and 0.375 BP

[TexanCowboy]

Mines are considered an armerment. That definatly, according to this, isn't civilian. I think minesweeper's are fine, but ships like this are not. I got in a lot of flak about this over my "civilian" TB.

[Carthaginian]

Mines are considered an armerment. That definatly, according to this, isn't civilian. I think minesweeper's are fine, but ships like this are not. I got in a lot of flak about this over my "civilian" TB.

TC, there are TONS of difference between a minelayer that is built to civilian standards and an torpedo boat that is built to civilian standards. A civilian TB is like saying like saying 'I have a civil howitzer'- there are no real civil uses for a howitzer. These ships don't actually represent a minelayer design- they represent a civilian design that has been modified to carry and lay mines- like most early dedicated minelayers.

Also, I see nowhere in the rules that 'armament' includes mines, or I would not have tried this.
If the Mods want to put that in the rules- cool.
But mines are just cargo- any ship can carry them that can carry any other cargo, and any ship with a crane can deploy them.

[Jefgte]

I agree with Cart.

NUS Atlantic Shipyards are going to built this multy job ship (14ships in 1919H2)



Coastal patrol boat
Minesweeper
with 2TT
12 depth charges
5 mines

;)

[The Rock Doctor]

I think that the Mods might, as I'm not sure there are civil uses for mines, either.

[TexanCowboy]

Well, in WW Japan, all farms are required to have a 40 mm Anti-Manzo gun.... :P

[Carthaginian]

I think that the Mods might, as I'm not sure there are civil uses for mines, either.

My point was, anyone can build a 'cargo' ship and then load mines on it. It's like building an 'auxilliary cruiser'- they aren't built to carry weapons, but they lend themselves to the purpose because of their nature. A cargo ship has a lot of internal space to carry mines and an auxiliary cruiser has a lot of speed and survivability due to their need to carry passengers quickly and safely.

I wouldn't mind paying full price for the MINES... that's not an issue (and indeed, I though mines HAD to be purchased separately). The ship, though... that is pure merchant standard construction- especially if the mines are paid for separately.

The 'fleet minelayer' is a warship in it's own right, and SHOULD cost full price.
This isn't, and it shouldn't.

[TexanCowboy]

And you can't build a fast banana boat, than strap a gun or two on it? My point exactly. It's either all or nothing, and I prefer nothing, for the sake of not trying to bend the rules.

[Carthaginian]

And you can't build a fast banana boat, than strap a gun or two on it? My point exactly. It's either all or nothing, and I prefer nothing, for the sake of not trying to bend the rules.

Untrue.
An Aux Cruiser is JUST WHAT YOU SUGGEST, much larger, but just what you suggest- a fast ship with a gun on it.
This ships IS NOT a warship- it has neither a warships speed, nor a warship's armor. It does not have a warship's weapons; it is armed as many armed merchantmen were armed during BOTH world wars, and as many converted minelayers were armed in peacetime and wartime. It possesses only a large cargo hold and cranes- par for the course for a merchantman. The only difference between it and it's sisters hauling cattle, grain or beer around the Gulf is that it it has a belly full of mines that I pay for under the rules, and minelaying gear that is paid for under the rules regarding a mine's weight.

This is NOT A WARSHIP, TC, no matter how hard a way is imagined to make it one.
I mean, how is this ship (what gave me the idea) anything other than a merchantman which has been armed and loaded with mines?

[P3D]

If you want to build it under merchant rules, the misc. weight of mines, minesweeping equipment and armament cannot exceed 2% of total light displacement under current rules. I run into the same problem when the rule took effect while I was building patrol crafts for mercantile standards. I ended up with a dozen or so patrol vessels that vere useless in their intended secondary (i.e. minelaying/sweeping) function.
At the end I built the second batch for military standard.

So your ship can have ~16t of mines, regardless of the size of the hold.
And, before you get angry with me, this rule was not mine idea. ;)