Confederate Ship Designs: 1919 and Beyond...

[Jefgte]

IMO, monitor in the historical concept is completly obsolete.
Seriously, what could you made with 2 guns?
Use 6x234 on a 120mhull with the same protection @ 22kts & you have a coastal defender & an escort cruiser.

Just my opinion...


Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Hmmm... I've thought about it, Jef- it would be harder to kill.
A 'coastal cruiser' makes sense, but I was looking at something specifically for supporting amphibious assaults. It's not for any kind of coastal defense... it's like the WWI Royal Navy monitors, specifically for fire support. They are a lot smaller than a comprable coastal cruiser, and thus a lot cheaper to leave in reserve when not in use.

[Guinness]

Carth: Wouldn't bother with a turbine on a 15kt monitor. Granted, I know this will screw up the weights, but really a VTE should/would be sufficient.

diesels. :)

actually DE or TE with twin screws for maneuverability would be interesting here too.

[P3D]

A NGFS monitor should not need need armor over splinter protection. That would allow the installation of larger/more guns. I.e. ~15kts dingle-shaft diesel, 3-4x13.5"+4x6" (main gun turret "elevated" firing only starboard, with limited train).

[Carthaginian]

Well, P3D, I'd prefer to keep something that has some kind of rudementary defensive ability and thus full traverse and heavier armor. I really don't like anything with just splinter protection.

Guinness, I thought that I'd have to have a capital ship diesel tech to get something like this with diesels- but all are right, diesels would make more sense in this application.

[P3D]

Well, P3D, I'd prefer to keep something that has some kind of rudementary defensive ability and thus full traverse and heavier armor. I really don't like anything with just splinter protection.

My point is you have 1600t of armor for a mere 132t of armament. With the main battery itself useless for self-defense. I won't waste that much on FC, you are shooting at land targets that won't move.
The advantage of a purpose-built barge/bombardment ship is to get closer to the shore, where no deep-draught old 1st&2nd-class cruiser (guarding sea approaches) could. For the 50lb gun support I'd just use old destroyers (with perhaps half the boilers torn out to give more space for ammo).
Or just delegate the aforementioned 1st and 2nd-class cruisers for this NGFS job. In case of the initial stages of an opposed landing, you won't have that much of spotting anyways so not much need to get closer.

IMHO.

[Jefgte]

...it's like the WWI Royal Navy monitors, specifically for fire support....

Wrong concept.

For fire support you have certainly not the Channel to cross!!!

Cruisers for escort, coastal defense & assault support are more useful.


Jef  ;)

[Jefgte]

4550T Protector, CSA Coastal Cruiser  laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   4 550 t light; 4 871 t standard; 5 221 t normal; 5 502 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 58.33 ft x 14.34 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 17.78 m  x 4.37 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x2 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2 551 lbs / 1 157 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.15" / 80 mm   255.91 ft / 78.00 m   10.17 ft / 3.10 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   131.23 ft / 40.00 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
     6.56 ft / 2.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.15" / 80 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.57" / 40 mm
   2nd:   3.15" / 80 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.57" / 40 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 16 000 shp / 11 936 Kw = 21.95 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 631 tons

Complement:
   306 - 399

Cost:
   £1.114 million / $4.456 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 319 tons, 6.1 %
   Armour: 967 tons, 18.5 %
      - Belts: 416 tons, 8.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 179 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 352 tons, 6.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 596 tons, 11.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 343 tons, 44.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 671 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 6.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7 029 lbs / 3 188 Kg = 18.1 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Mid (40 %):      14.44 ft / 4.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   14.44 ft / 4.40 m
      - Stern:      14.44 ft / 4.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.68 ft / 4.78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 16 103 Square feet or 1 496 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 504 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.87
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

A smaller version of Jef's excellent idea that I'm currently toying with.
Mostly geared towards fending off the larger-caliber guns on new destroyers.
200-pounder guns replace the 400-pounders, and the displacement is well below 4000t light. Draft is particularly shallow and the ship is not much larger than a tug with a big load of barges.

laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   3,580 t light; 3,834 t standard; 4,287 t normal; 4,649 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   315.00 ft / 315.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
   96.01 m / 96.01 m x 18.90 m  x 3.66 m

Armament:
      6 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (3x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      1 - 1.58" / 40.1 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 1,206 lbs / 547 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 12,000 shp / 8,952 Kw = 20.10 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 815 tons

Complement:
   264 - 344

Cost:
   £0.701 million / $2.805 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 159 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 1,038 tons, 24.2 %
      - Belts: 581 tons, 13.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 165 tons, 3.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 274 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 447 tons, 10.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,737 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 707 tons, 16.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 4.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,114 lbs / 3,681 Kg = 38.5 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.640
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (70 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.50 ft / 2.59 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.36 ft / 4.38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,827 Square feet or 1,378 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 444 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.14
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TexanCowboy]

I'm thinking the main problem here is the lack of the excellent 2.75'' or 3.5'' guns. Those have a better rate of fire, and when a ship is that close ashore, MTB's are a major threat. I'm looking at building a cruiser with nothing but, for screening roles.

[Jefgte]

I agree with Tex, you need some 2"75 or 3"5 for secondary armament.


Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Another ship I'm thinking VERY seriously about... an 'Ocean Cruiser.'
Primary duties would be policing the SLoC, with a strong secondary role of showing the flag and operating with allied fleets. They are neither extravagant nor underbuilt for the job- they are just plain 'cruisers,' intended to just cruise.

laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   11,000 t light; 11,584 t standard; 12,895 t normal; 13,944 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   630.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   192.02 m / 190.50 m x 21.34 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      8 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (4x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (6x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      2 - 1.58" / 40.1 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,210 lbs / 1,002 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   422.00 ft / 128.63 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 88,000 shp / 65,648 Kw = 31.07 kts
   Range 11,035nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,361 tons

Complement:
   604 - 786

Cost:
   £2.378 million / $9.511 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 293 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 2,096 tons, 16.3 %
      - Belts: 988 tons, 7.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 513 tons, 4.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 547 tons, 4.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,279 tons, 25.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,078 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,895 tons, 14.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 255 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,743 lbs / 6,687 Kg = 69.9 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.516
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.93 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.78 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Mid (45 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.73 ft / 6.32 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,575 Square feet or 2,748 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.21
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Desertfox]

Shiny! Interceptor bait...  :P

[P3D]

I'd add a fifth turret for RoF and fiddle with draught-beam a bit.

[Tanthalas]

Shiny! Interceptor bait...  :P

that war would last a long time... Nassau vs the NS, the NS would run out of ships after what the first 20 minutes?