Confederate Ship Designs: 1919 and Beyond...

[P3D]

The ship is inferior to the Dutch pair of de Ruyters (already in commission), although on 4000t less. 2 fewer main guns, less deck armor (compensated by thicker belt) but no TDS.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=675.0

Or the Orange pair of fast BBs (9x13.5", 29kts).

Do you really have to save the tonnage?
With the most probable foe in mind, increase speed to 31kts if that's still within the SHP limit, increasing length if possible. And try to squeeze in a TDS, she is too expensive a ship to stumble on a submarine.

[Carthaginian]

9x13.5" can't get inside this ship's immune zone, and can't outrun her.
They aren't 'inferior' to the Orange ships- they are effective in a different way.
This is not a fast battleship, this is a heavily-armed cruiser.

There are very few ships that aren't inferior to the de Ruyters on paper, but in reality:
1.) the de Ruyter have a fairly large negative immune zone against the Tchakta.
2.) the de Ruyter have a rather short belt compared to the Tchakta.
3.) the de Ruyter are poorer gunnery platforms and will have worse fire control than the Tchakta.
4.) the  Tchakta has almost 4 torpedoes worth of survivability, similar to several ships her size/speed.

[P3D]

9x13.5" can't get inside this ship's immune zone, and can't outrun her.
They aren't 'inferior' to the Orange ships- they are effective in a different way.
This is not a fast battleship, this is a heavily-armed cruiser.

Then why the 15" guns, if the ship runs away from a battleship where they'd be justified? Granted, 12" belt is needed against the other battlecruisers, but I'd rather have more shells in the air - instead of the extra penetrating ability of the 15" you don't need against them.

TBH, Orange was 2-3 years behind tech-wise until 1916 or so - but needed a fast capital ship and it was the best compromise I could manage. The Orange ships (also classified as 'cruisers') are more useful against 'cruiser' type targets.

"There are very few ships that aren't inferior to the de Ruyters on paper, but in reality:
1.) the de Ruyter have a fairly large negative immune zone against the Tchakta.
2.) the de Ruyter have a rather short belt compared to the Tchakta"

??? De Ruyter has a 506'x16.6' belt. Tchakta has 400'x18' belt on a 30' shorter ship.

"3.) the de Ruyter are poorer gunnery platforms and will have worse fire control than the Tchakta.

The Netherlands could research the 1912 tech by ~1920 even without tech exchange, considering the report backlog. Not if they still have the first FC tech, though.
The roll period (which is the one that counts) is longer for the de Ruyter so its rather the other way around.

"4.) the  Tchakta has almost 4 torpedoes worth of survivability, similar to several ships her size/speed."

But any torpedo hits would result in engine room/magazine flooding.

[Tanthalas]

Sorry Jamie but I think mine is better, I took your restrictions into mind but used Rohans guns (if we are talking 15" I could jsut post my Hood here)

Rhinvan, Rastiwen, & Ralwdda, Rohan Battlecruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   28,000 t light; 29,393 t standard; 33,688 t normal; 37,124 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   782.00 ft / 768.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
   238.35 m / 234.09 m x 29.26 m  x 9.45 m

Armament:
      6 - 15.50" / 394 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,951.00lbs / 884.96kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (8x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (3x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,722 lbs / 5,771 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   460.00 ft / 140.21 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   308.00 ft / 93.88 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   460.00 ft / 140.21 m   27.21 ft / 8.29 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 100,000 shp / 74,600 Kw = 28.07 kts
   Range 8,525nm at 19.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7,731 tons

Complement:
   1,243 - 1,616

Cost:
   £6.498 million / $25.992 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,523 tons, 4.5 %
   Armour: 9,625 tons, 28.6 %
      - Belts: 4,044 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 695 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 1,873 tons, 5.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,766 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 247 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,496 tons, 10.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,951 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,688 tons, 16.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 404 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     45,776 lbs / 20,764 Kg = 24.6 x 15.5 " / 394 mm shells or 6.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.516
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.77 degrees
   Stern overhang: -8.00 ft / -2.44 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m (19.00 ft / 5.79 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.88 ft / 6.36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 49,844 Square feet or 4,631 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 883 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.18
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

404 tons Misc. Weight
250 tons FC
25 tons Radar Instalation
25 tons Wireless
25 tons Crew Comfort (Heating, Cooling, Aditional Coffee pots)
25 tons Flag Facilities
  2 Tons Capitans Quarters
  2 Tons Flag Quarters
50 tons Reserved

I briefly considerd actualy building this ship but decided there wasnt a reason for it in the fleet

[Carthaginian]

P3D - the belt on my ship is 'shorter' lengthwise, but de Ryuter is much 'shorter' height-wise. Given her length and her 'less tall' belt, I wonder if she would have everything necessary covered at speed.
As to the 'roll period', since when have we sit down and looked at that when comparing ships... honestly? If SS said a ship was a better gun platform, then that was what we went by. No one has actually sat down and complained that one guy beat the other's roll period by 0.1 seconds.

I'm planning on tweaking the Tchakta design for the next few days, you've given me some nice starting points. And as far as 'do I have to save the weight'?
The answer is ALWAYS a resounding 'Yes.'
More weight saved means more sister ships and/or more escorts- a battle line with 3 mediocre ships totaling 24 guns with average armor protection will generally beat a battle line of 2 excellent ships with only 20, and I would prefer to have 3 fleet scouts with good speed and a lighter armament than 2 with armament that they really can't safely use against another ship with similar armament because of the danger of a penetrating hit (one reason I generally go for armor over speed).

de Ruyter was built to kill other battleships- to outmaneuver them and attack from an advantageous position; Tchatka was built to kill fleet scouts and to use her speed to keep another vessel of similar speed/armament from gaining advantageous positioning. It might be foolish to take her up against de Ruyter, but that is fine, because that is not the kind of fight she was designed for.

[eltf177]

Tchakta, Confederate States of America 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Armament:

      6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft

Mid-break location forces superfiring turret aft.

Ummmm...what superfiring turret?

[Carthaginian]

Tchakta, Confederate States of America 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Armament:

      6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft

Mid-break location forces superfiring turret aft.

Ummmm...what superfiring turret?

Due to the location of the hull break, one of the aft turrets is elevated.

[ctwaterman]

Last I knew the Dutch had just finished the 1912 Fire Control and had begun updating some of the Queens Ships just before the war with Siam broke out!

To my knowledge the Dutch were the first people to have the 1912 Firecontrol.

[Guinness]

When chased, this ship will likely only be able to bring two main guns to bear. I suspect that will figure into the calculations of the captain doing the chasing...

I wonder though: if you are married to the 6 main gun concept, maybe two triples pocket battleship style? The CSA does have a triple 15" mount.

[ledeper]

To my knowledge the Dutch were the first people to have the 1912 Firecontrol.

exactly with the Esc coming in second ;D ;D

[The Rock Doctor]

I believe SS assumes that the two turrets are aft of the break, whether that break is at 50% or 65% of overall length.

[Carthaginian]

I wonder though: if you are married to the 6 main gun concept, maybe two triples pocket battleship style? The CSA does have a triple 15" mount.

The list of tech info  got for the CSA s a bit incomplete, also, and I was unaware of the 15" triple. Might have to look at that for this project, and another I was working on... tell me, about how wide would that turret need the hull to be to support it?

Rock, then I'll revise the ship; I was apparently falsely informed that this had become acceptable.

[Guinness]

I'll email you the tech tree excel file I have. It's current up to 1916 (I think).

As far as naval artillery: the newer stuff you may not be aware of includes: the 3x15" turret, a 3x9.2"L50 turret, and IIRC a 3x7.5"L45.

I make the triple 15" to have an inner barbette diameter of ~34.5 feet. Add armor to get outside diameter. I think it would fit in this hull, especially since both turrets would be set pretty far back from the ends.

Secondaries might be a little more work to locate. Are they 5.5" or 4.75", btw?

EDIT: had the length of the 7.5" guns wrong...

[Carthaginian]

The secondaries are 4.75", twin mount & hoist, with only splinter protection.
I'll call the inside diameter of the 15" triple an even 35' feet, then.

I wanted to stay away from the 'panzerschiffe' look as I consider it WAY overdone... but if that's the easiest way to get the job done.

[Sachmle]

I believe SS assumes that the two turrets are aft of the break, whether that break is at 50% or 65% of overall length.

It does if you do "Centerline ends, majority aft" but if he did "Centerline Distributed" then Q would be fore the mid break and get the desired effect he's looking for.