Confederate Ship Designs: 1919 and Beyond...

[Sachmle]

The whole thing is a touchy subject. We don't build our merchant fleets, they are just 'assumed' to exist. But we all know that most minelaying is done but converted merchants. SO....how about you pay merchant price for the actual ship and pay military cost for the mines and some objectified weight for rails, etc. PLUS the cost (based on the merchant price of the ship) to 'refit' the merchant to carry the minelaying equip..call it 2 weeks time for 'refit'. What say you?

[Guinness]

The mods will discuss...

[Desertfox]

Quote from: TexanCowboy on Today at 18:04:40

Mines are considered an armerment. That definatly, according to this, isn't civilian. I think minesweeper's are fine, but ships like this are not. I got in a lot of flak about this over my "civilian" TB.

TC, there are TONS of difference between a minelayer that is built to civilian standards and an torpedo boat that is built to civilian standards. A civilian TB is like saying like saying 'I have a civil howitzer'- there are no real civil uses for a howitzer. These ships don't actually represent a minelayer design- they represent a civilian design that has been modified to carry and lay mines- like most early dedicated minelayers.

Also, I see nowhere in the rules that 'armament' includes mines, or I would not have tried this.
If the Mods want to put that in the rules- cool.
But mines are just cargo- any ship can carry them that can carry any other cargo, and any ship with a crane can deploy them.

Guns are standard equipment on Swiss civilian merchant ships. They are manned and operated by civilians, and while most are ex-military weapons, some are custom ordered.

[TexanCowboy]

Bad DF! Bad DF!


If that's the case, on all my merchant ships, the Yamato exists. Because it's civilian, the guns aren't covered in the sim report.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D

[Guinness]

Quote from: TexanCowboy on Today at 18:04:40

Mines are considered an armerment. That definatly, according to this, isn't civilian. I think minesweeper's are fine, but ships like this are not. I got in a lot of flak about this over my "civilian" TB.

TC, there are TONS of difference between a minelayer that is built to civilian standards and an torpedo boat that is built to civilian standards. A civilian TB is like saying like saying 'I have a civil howitzer'- there are no real civil uses for a howitzer. These ships don't actually represent a minelayer design- they represent a civilian design that has been modified to carry and lay mines- like most early dedicated minelayers.

Also, I see nowhere in the rules that 'armament' includes mines, or I would not have tried this.
If the Mods want to put that in the rules- cool.
But mines are just cargo- any ship can carry them that can carry any other cargo, and any ship with a crane can deploy them.

Guns are standard equipment on Swiss civilian merchant ships. They are manned and operated by civilians, and while most are ex-military weapons, some are custom ordered.

Freedom minded merchant ship owners must really love this intrusion by the government on their profits (since every ton of guns is a ton not carried that could be making them money). It's no wonder the Swiss have some sort of revolt every 18 months or so.

[Carthaginian]

The whole thing is a touchy subject. We don't build our merchant fleets, they are just 'assumed' to exist. But we all know that most minelaying is done but converted merchants. SO....how about you pay merchant price for the actual ship and pay military cost for the mines and some objectified weight for rails, etc. PLUS the cost (based on the merchant price of the ship) to 'refit' the merchant to carry the minelaying equip..call it 2 weeks time for 'refit'. What say you?

I'd say that tender rules would be a pretty good compromise- that would let you have the cheap material cost but would also enforce the cost of building the 'whole thing.'

[Desertfox]

Freedom minded merchant ship owners must really love this intrusion by the government on their profits (since every ton of guns is a ton not carried that could be making them money). It's no wonder the Swiss have some sort of revolt every 18 months or so.

The government has nothing to do with it. It's just cheaper to put guns on the ships than pay for insurance, plus rates are lower if you are armed. Also since pirates know that Swiss ships might be armed (not all are) they are more wary of attacking any Swiss flagged ship, which in turn makes it a more attractive option to have your ship be Swiss flagged, and thereby get cheaper insurance.

[ctwaterman]

Quietly notes that all Swiss Merchants are to be treated as warships and not merchant ships since they are all armed and they do not need to be granted the protections accorded merchants.

Not that the treaty that created the Armed Merchant Cruiser rules and the cruiser rules for taking prizes exist in Navalism.

Charles

[P3D]

Guns are standard equipment on Swiss civilian merchant ships. They are manned and operated by civilians, and while most are ex-military weapons, some are custom ordered.

What they are to defend against? Most pirates/privateers were somewhat associated with the Swiss - at least did not operate against them. Nevermind that any vessels of war over 1000t displacement would have field day against the hobby gunners. Meanwhile the guns and ammo puts several restrictions on the cargo capacity, needs increased manning. Moreover, insurance premiums would be increased due to the higher probability of devastating fire on board.

No wonder the Swiss lost export and trade markets - they just could not manage to compete those with lower overhead costs.

[maddox]

Oh, one outdated 3" gun or a Nordenfelt machinegun and 2 "dual purpose" sailors shouldn't be that big an "intrusion", and should be enough to scare the avarage pirogue using African Pirate.

[P3D]

Oh, one outdated 3" gun or a Nordenfelt machinegun and 2 "dual purpose" sailors shouldn't be that big an "intrusion", and should be enough to scare the avarage pirogue using African Pirate.

Which African Pirates? The Swiss not exactly trade in West Africa (they cannot really be elsewhere).

[maddox]

Oh, I was thinking about the Rust Bucket and the carreening cruisers

[Carthaginian]

Hmmmm.... how light can you go for a workable battle cruiser?
I wonder, these days, if you can do it, but I think we know who has to try!

Tchakta, Confederate States of America 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   27,000 t light; 28,322 t standard; 30,005 t normal; 31,351 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   700.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   213.36 m / 213.36 m x 28.65 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      16 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (8x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 1.58" / 40.1 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,812 lbs / 5,811 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 112,000 shp / 83,552 Kw = 28.95 kts
   Range 5,925nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,030 tons

Complement:
   1,139 - 1,481

Cost:
   £5.855 million / $23.420 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,374 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 8,684 tons, 28.9 %
      - Belts: 3,812 tons, 12.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2,025 tons, 6.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,597 tons, 8.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 250 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,173 tons, 13.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,331 tons, 41.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,005 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 438 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41,560 lbs / 18,851 Kg = 24.6 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      33.00 ft / 10.06 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Mid (65 %):      28.00 ft / 8.53 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   25.95 ft / 7.91 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 202.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,791 Square feet or 4,347 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 876 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.75
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Mid-break location forces superfiring turret aft.

[Guinness]

You've got stability and seakeeping to give.Could you maybe save on displacement or add speed?

I still think a ship needs at least 8 guns for decent long range shooting....

[Carthaginian]

Oh, I can shave off a few hundred tons here and there... maybe a thousand or so if I really, really engineer her tight.

I agree that 8 guns is the ideal number for a long-range gunnery platform- but this is NOT a long-range gunnery platform. This is a CRUISER, a vessel without delusion of battle line grandeur. This ship is built as a 'fleet scout'/'cruiser killer' kind of vessel, intended to run from anything it can't outfight OR kill anything that would be foolish enough to catch up to it.

Now, I know that there are some 30 knot monsters being built (and which have already been built) that could- in ideal conditions, with a favorable tailwind, and with more than a few hands taking to oars for 'a bit more oomph'- catch her- but (since most are one-offs or one of a pair) but would their commanders want to risk serious damage to their very valuable hides killing a ship almost 10,000t lighter than them?

She's not meant to function as a battle line vessel, period.