Panzershiff 1

[ledeper]

To be laid down 19/2:
Berlin
Esc Panzer-shiffe laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   18.643 t light; 19.495 t standard; 21.528 t normal; 23.155 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   720,33 ft / 716,86 ft x 78,74 ft x 25,43 ft (normal load)
   219,56 m / 218,50 m x 24,00 m  x 7,75 m

Armament:
      9 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,81kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6.274 lbs / 2.846 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   378,94 ft / 115,50 m   10,66 ft / 3,25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   378,94 ft / 115,50 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   5,91" / 150 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm   0,79" / 20 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 87.342 shp / 65.157 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.660 tons

Complement:
   888 - 1.155

Cost:
   £3,855 million / $15,420 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 784 tons, 3,6 %
   Armour: 5.833 tons, 27,1 %
      - Belts: 2.512 tons, 11,7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 1.087 tons, 5,0 %
      - Armour Deck: 2.102 tons, 9,8 %
      - Conning Tower: 131 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 3.254 tons, 15,1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.321 tons, 38,7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.886 tons, 13,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 2,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25.370 lbs / 11.508 Kg = 37,9 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,47 ft / 5,02 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16,47 ft / 5,02 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16,47 ft / 5,02 m
      - Stern:      16,47 ft / 5,02 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,73 ft / 5,10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 38.484 Square feet or 3.575 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 739 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,06
      - Longitudinal: 0,98
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc weight
BB Fc 250 t
L/RW/L 25t
Seendes Augen 25t
Reservs 75 t

[Guinness]

I think the belt is way to short (in height) for a ship that is so long and so fast. There's going to be unarmored hull below the belt exposed at speed.

[The Rock Doctor]

Check out your hull strength figures - you can probably raise the freeboard some, without losing overall hull strength.

Not too keen on the secondary battery or the shallow main belt...

[Carthaginian]

The ship has too much emphasis on speed and main guns.
Protection is totally overlooked in favor of guns too small to face a battleship but overkill for facing another cruiser. The speed is useful, but the vessel would not survive more than one disadvantageous position against an enemy force due to poor armor; after all, to escape, one must survive the act of running away.

I would bring the gun caliber down to a 9" sized gun, rethink the armor a bit, leave the speed as-is, and finally try to 'downsize' the ship a little to more of the 12,500-15,000 dwt range.

[miketr]

My thought is that it doesn't have enough speed, many cruisers on the drawing boards are 30 knot designs with some nearing 33 knots.  With her fire power she is, I assume, a cruiser killer type intended to kill smaller cruisers and older armored cruisers.  The problem is she doesn't have the speed to run down the latest light cruisers and doesn't have the fire power to face a BB let alone some of the Battle cruisers out there. I assume that as allies of the Dutch and Bavaria that French ships would be a key worry.  In which case might want to look at the French

Demarce IIIB
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1408.msg43458#msg43458
Demarce IV
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1408.msg36371#msg36371

Both of these ships are faster than this design, so I would try to push the speed even higher.

Right now its too light to face a battle cruiser but not fast enough to run down other cruisers.  Need to get faster and or tougher and or smaller.  For myself I would lean towards cutting the belt down to 200mm or even 175mm, the French Demarce IV guns are only 195mm, and pushing the speed up.

It all comes down to what is the mission for this ship?

[ledeper]

Berlin-, Esc Panzer-shiffe laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   20.669 t light; 21.585 t standard; 23.742 t normal; 25.468 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,92 ft / 718,01 ft x 78,74 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   220,04 m / 218,85 m x 24,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      9 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,81kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns (4x2 guns), 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6.513 lbs / 2.954 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   406,82 ft / 124,00 m   13,94 ft / 4,25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   406,82 ft / 124,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   5,91" / 150 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm   0,79" / 20 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 114.418 shp / 85.356 Kw = 30,50 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.884 tons

Complement:
   956 - 1.243

Cost:
   £4,373 million / $17,490 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 814 tons, 3,4 %
   Armour: 6.706 tons, 28,2 %
      - Belts: 3.233 tons, 13,6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 1.157 tons, 4,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2.176 tons, 9,2 %
      - Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 4.263 tons, 18,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.436 tons, 35,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.073 tons, 12,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25.654 lbs / 11.637 Kg = 38,3 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,01
   Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 17,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,15 ft / 6,75 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Stern:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,37 ft / 5,60 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 39.828 Square feet or 3.700 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 710 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,01
      - Longitudinal: 1,00
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TexanCowboy]

This could be cheaper. You don't need 11'' guns. That will only tempt the captain to fight in the line of battle, to which it is not suited.

[Jefgte]

This could be cheaper. You don't need 11'' guns. That will only tempt the captain to fight in the line of battle, to which it is not suited.

IMO, use only 2T3x280 @ 30kts - belt 230


Jef

[Jefgte]

17500T-2T3x275, NUS AC laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   17 500 t light; 18 167 t standard; 20 114 t normal; 21 671 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   711.14 ft / 708.66 ft x 78.74 ft x 27.19 ft (normal load)
   216.76 m / 216.00 m x 24.00 m  x 8.29 m

Armament:
      6 - 10.83" / 275 mm guns (2x3 guns), 634.55lbs / 287.83kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4 237 lbs / 1 922 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.06" / 230 mm   492.13 ft / 150.00 m   12.73 ft / 3.88 m
   Ends:   3.15" / 80 mm     98.43 ft / 30.00 m   10.17 ft / 3.10 m
     118.11 ft / 36.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   1.57" / 40 mm   492.13 ft / 150.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   492.13 ft / 150.00 m   25.49 ft / 7.77 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 9.06" / 230 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 94 000 shp / 70 124 Kw = 30.03 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 504 tons

Complement:
   843 - 1 097

Cost:
   £3.377 million / $13.507 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 530 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 5 993 tons, 29.8 %
      - Belts: 2 732 tons, 13.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 731 tons, 3.6 %
      - Armament: 681 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 705 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 144 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3 502 tons, 17.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 155 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 614 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25 936 lbs / 11 764 Kg = 40.9 x 10.8 " / 275 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.464
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (45 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.79 ft / 5.42 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 36 012 Square feet or 3 346 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 653 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.06
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[The Rock Doctor]

Give the ship the armament it needs to do its job.  Assume your flag and command officers are generally competent enough not to unnecessarily expose the ship to enemy capital units.

[TexanCowboy]

History has proven that's not ever true. Beatty put the BC's in the line at Jutland. Hood went up againist the Bismarck. If the ship has the armerment, it will be used like that, weather it is smart or not.

[Sachmle]

History has proven that's not ever true. Beatty put the BC's in the line at Jutland. Hood went up against the Bismarck. If the ship has the armaments, it will be used like that, weather it is smart or not.

What history book you been reading? Beatty NEVER put the BCs in the "Line" at Jutland.

[TexanCowboy]

He didn't? I thought he put the Invincible's in the line as a replacement for the QEs?  ???

[Sachmle]

LOL

[TexanCowboy]

So that's not true?

I'm confused...