Next generation DD from Design Bureau Hamburg

[miketr]

Especially if any of the crazy rocket ideas are allowed.

[Desertfox]

A question... why do we have to relax the seakeeping requirements for DDs? People are already complaining about DDs being too good, relaxing those requirements are just going to make the problem worse. My Kidd design had 1.0 seakeeping with a speed of 32 knots and was loaded to the gills with everything, all on 1.5k tons. But now if you let me drop seakeeping and can stuff even more onto the design.

[Carthaginian]

Like this of course. ;D

LOL... yes, but will they fight for the Empire, the U.S. or simply find a quiet atoll and belly up to hide?

And PLEASE, if you know of a source that can provide the entire manga (beyond the parts covered by the anime) please let me know. I'm on disk 2 of Zipang right now. It's probably the best animated series I've ever watched... and better than a lot of live action shows.

[miketr]

A question... why do we have to relax the seakeeping requirements for DDs? People are already complaining about DDs being too good, relaxing those requirements are just going to make the problem worse. My Kidd design had 1.0 seakeeping with a speed of 32 knots and was loaded to the gills with everything, all on 1.5k tons. But now if you let me drop seakeeping and can stuff even more onto the design.

Because people keep putting too many guns and not enough speed on the DD's.  I still think we should have some hard limits on what people can put on the DD's.

Michael

[Guinness]

I don't think that any requirements are being relaxed, because there are no rules about what minimum seakeeping a ship has to have.

What I am encouraging is for others to think about breaking their templates for destroyers: Instead of the typical 4 to 6 guns and 6 TTs, with 31.5 knots on a 1000t boat, players might consider 3 guns, 4 tubes, less freeboard, and 33-34 knots. That's all.

In tinkering, I'm finding that it's a lot easier to take weight saved by including less freeboard and turn it into more speed than it is to turn it into more guns, especially if you rebalance your "seakeeping" expectations. I think this well reflects OTL design compromises.

If players want to keep building ships that only do 32 knots, but have high freeboard, that's their business. There are probably specific tactical situations where that ship may have an advantage. Or there might not be. Future battle sims could prove interesting.

[Jefgte]

in 1920,Mechanical turrets are reality for
T2x406
T2x356
T2x305
T2x234
T2x152

Why not for ?
T2x120 or M2x120
T2x102 or M2x102
M2x76.2...

That is just a mechanical possibility not retain by the designers in 1920...

The mechanical mount fot 2 small guns could be made without difficulties. That is just MECHANIC.
In 1920, If you could built a 800t turret, you could built a10t turret or mount.
------------------------
In the same spirit, You could built 50 000t BBs in a few years & 80 000t in the 30'... Why ?
Because, Liners of that periode were really heavier than BBs or BCs !!!
That is mechanicaly possible to built 300m - 80 000t BBs in the 30'!!!

That's NAVALISM  ;)


Jef

[Sachmle]

Here is a design I did right after Guinness started his research:

Z101, Deutches Kaiserreich Zestorer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,546 t standard; 1,701 t normal; 1,824 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   368.43 ft / 364.17 ft x 36.42 ft x 9.35 ft (normal load)
   112.30 m / 111.00 m x 11.10 m  x 2.85 m

Armament:
      3 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 163 lbs / 74 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 50,895 shp / 37,968 Kw = 34.89 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 278 tons

Complement:
   132 - 172

Cost:
   £0.512 million / $2.048 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 20 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 1,051 tons, 61.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 372 tons, 21.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 200 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 58 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     237 lbs / 108 Kg = 4.5 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.50

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.480
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.08 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 100
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -2.46 ft / -0.75 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Forecastle (35 %):   17.06 ft / 5.20 m (8.53 ft / 2.60 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Stern:      8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.52 ft / 3.51 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 211.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,679 Square feet or 806 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.59
      - Overall: 0.50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

25t 1912 Fire Control
16t 8 1913 2t 50cm Torpedoes
2t 6 DC in stern racks
15t Reserve weight
Trial Speed: 35.66kts

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I am toying about with something similar, when I get the relevant technology.
Based on the GTB1918Mob (as to scavange the line drawing), c. 1500 tonnes, 34-35 knots, 4x1x4,5"/50lbs, 2x3x20" TT, maybe two machine guns thrown in as an afterthought.

Borys

[Walter]

LOL... yes, but will they fight for the Empire, the U.S. or simply find a quiet atoll and belly up to hide?

We're the good guys. Of course they will fight for the Empire. ;D

And PLEASE, if you know of a source that can provide the entire manga (beyond the parts covered by the anime) please let me know.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything useful except for the first few chapters. I haven't even found any Japanese scans. To think that 42 volumes have already been released...

[ledeper]

More tinkering,and after Seaworthiness ideas/suggestions it will have a seaworthiness of  about 120:
Dd 43-, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1.441 t light; 1.498 t standard; 1.827 t normal; 2.089 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390,03 ft / 387,14 ft x 42,16 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   118,88 m / 118,00 m x 12,85 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns (4 mounts), 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in any sea
   Weight of broadside 365 lbs / 166 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 19,7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.987 shp / 23.862 Kw = 31,50 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 591 tons

Complement:
   139 - 181

Cost:
   £0,502 million / $2,008 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 2,5 %
   Machinery: 883 tons, 48,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 463 tons, 25,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 385 tons, 21,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 2,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     593 lbs / 269 Kg = 9,9 x 4,9 " / 125 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,99
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 8,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 39 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,61

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,398
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,18 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Stern:      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,68 ft / 3,56 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 10.035 Square feet or 932 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 69 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 158 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,66
      - Overall: 0,52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Trial Speed: 31,5 knts
Range at max speed: 850 Nm.
Torpedoes:10 tns 2 reloads
L/R W/L 25 tns
Reserve  :15 tns   

But me don't like sea-keeping figure ??? ???

[maddox]

I would drop the amount of guns to 4 or 5 in single mounts.

But the ship feels of a tad off, don't know why.