The Huang Hun and Li Ming

[Logi]

The Huang Hun and Li Ming, constructed in 1913 and 1914 respectively have been quite... quite outdated.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3098.msg33199#msg33199

If the engines are replaced and the bunker filed with oil instead of coal: The ships should manage a jump from 25.84kts and 5101@12kts TO 27.75kts and 9399@12kts.

If I wait for 1917 engine tech, I might be able to push for more: but the problem is with the freeboard and stability being too low for such speeds. I suppose I can use the saved weight on increasing deck armor from 1.5" to 2" and an inch or two no the main belt.

The question is, of course, should I and is it worth it? The BP needed to do such "upgrade" could be used in building army corps or more destroyers...

So ignore or fix? And if fix, now or later?

[TexanCowboy]

28 knots still won't do **** vs. a more modern ship. I say ignore it, and wait for a later opportunity.

[Sachmle]

28 knots is fine. Oil fired is good idea, as is deck armor...new belt armor would take just that, and would be expensive. I'd rearmour the turrets, 5" is kinda thin for fighting BCs. 7" belt is OK for fighting off CLs and ACs, even other 9-11" BCs, but 12" or bigger guns and you should probably run away.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think 28 kts and some additional armor would be a useful upgrade.

[Jefgte]

I agree with Rock


Jef

[Logi]

Wasn't able to get as much more armor on as I like: In the end, I had to create a bulge and upped the speed to 28kts (5682nm @ 12kts) , replaced the turrets (I believe this is the way I must do it?) with the same turret but armored higher.

The removed turrets will be used either as CDS or used in a new ship. The machinery.... I'm not sure how to use it, but I suppose I could give it to some monitors to be built...

I'm using 1917 engine tech, assuming I got it in time for a rebuild in 1920.

Refurbishment cost: $2.44
Turret Replacement: 1.466 BP + $2.932
Bulge Addition: 1.042 BP + $1.042
Waterline lowered: $0.2214
Bunker Converted to Oil: $0.574
Machinery Replaced: 2.352 BP + $4.704

Total: 4.86 BP + $7.2094

Huang Hun, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   12,765 t light; 13,382 t standard; 14,020 t normal; 14,530 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 542.00 ft x 70.00 ft (Bulges 75.80 ft) x 22.20 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 165.20 m x 21.34 m (Bulges 23.10 m)  x 6.77 m

Armament:
     4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
     6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,708 lbs / 2,589 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 67,260 shp / 50,176 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 5,682nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,148 tons

Complement:
   643 - 837

Cost:
   £1.500 million / $6.002 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 714 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 3,690 tons, 26.3 %
      - Belts: 2,075 tons, 14.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 825 tons, 5.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 727 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,352 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,710 tons, 40.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,254 tons, 8.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,318 lbs / 6,948 Kg = 23.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.538
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.15 ft / 1.26 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Stern:      17.80 ft / 5.43 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.73 ft / 5.71 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,182 Square feet or 2,432 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 701 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm not sure an inch of barbette armor is worth the effort.  It probably won't make much difference as to whether or not incoming fire penetrates.  You may get more bang for your buck in additional turret armor or a re-shaped (slightly higher) bow (for slightly better seakeeping).

As far as the turrets go - I think you'd only have to replace the armor itself - not the gun and mounting.  So far as I know, the armor's all bolted/welded onto the turret.

Your CT armor got smaller - probably typed a 5 when you meant a 6.

[Logi]

Bow was increased in height and turret face armor was increased. Range was increased.

Refurbishment cost: $2.44
Turret Replacement: 0.738 BP + $0.738
Bulge Addition: 1.042 BP + $1.042
Waterline lowered: $0.2214
Bunker Converted to Oil: $0.62
Machinery Replaced: 2.352 BP + $4.704

Total: 4.132 BP + $9.7654

Huang Hun, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   12,714 t light; 13,331 t standard; 14,020 t normal; 14,571 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 542.00 ft x 70.00 ft (Bulges 75.80 ft) x 22.20 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 165.20 m x 21.34 m (Bulges 23.10 m)  x 6.77 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,708 lbs / 2,589 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 67,260 shp / 50,176 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 6,193nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,240 tons

Complement:
   643 - 837

Cost:
   £1.499 million / $5.994 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 714 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 3,640 tons, 26.0 %
      - Belts: 2,075 tons, 14.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 763 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 727 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 75 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,352 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,709 tons, 40.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,305 tons, 9.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,317 lbs / 6,948 Kg = 23.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.538
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.57 ft / 0.17 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.80 ft / 5.73 m
      - Stern:      17.80 ft / 5.43 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.22 ft / 5.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,182 Square feet or 2,432 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 697 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.70
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent