Design Bureau Hong Kong

[Logi]

The extra two funnels remove as per Guinness's suggestion: the space is used to give the TT's better firing arcs.

It seems the first has 360 movement whereas the back two TTs have ~270 now.

[Jefgte]

IMO, I place the first funnel, just aft the first TT...
The aft TT, "superfiring" are certainly not good for the stability...

Jef

[The Rock Doctor]

I'l copy what I just posted in a Swiss thread:

The Kidds - like those Dutch designs with ten guns, and like the 200 t RRC boats with nine torpedoes - are non-sensical.  Those armaments will not fit. 

If it could have been done historically, it would have been - I defy you to show me a single destroyer class of equivalent fire power on similar deck space.

[Logi]

Look it fits.

[The Rock Doctor]

It fits if the only superstructure is a bus shelter and two small stacks. 

Can you direct me to a historical ship with similar dimensions and similar armament?

[Guinness]

Actually, deck arrangement isn't the only issue with such a heavy battery.

The ship's got to be crewed*. It'll take a lot of men to operate all those guns and torpedo tubes. It's a very small hull, so where will all those guys live when they aren't at their action stations?

* Keep in mind, SS only estimates crew size based on displacement, not based on what guns, etc. are to be mounted.

[Logi]

@Rocky

I can't find a ship 230ft so I'm forced to use otl ships and trim them down by removing the armament that this ship doesn't have:

Take for instance the Wickles-class DD:

315' long, 30' wide. 4 x 4" guns + 1 x 3" gun + 4 (sides) 21" TTs.

I uses four funnel stacks, in two stack formation. (The four stacks all center line are put in pairs with uniform space between the funnels in a pair).

One funnel pair is 40' long. One 4" gun is 15' long. One 3" gun is ~12' long.

Now let's start subtracting:

My ship uses only two boilers, hence only two stacks. The total length needed is 315-40 = 275'. I only have two guns, hence 275-30 = 245' I don't have a 3" gun, hence 245-12 = 233'. The 4" guns had to have working space around it, I assume 5' for each gun. Hence 233-(4x5)=213'. I have one addition TT, length wise (the Wickles had two on each side) so 213+22+5=240'

I am 10' over. However the Wickles class had a complement of 100 officers and enlisted, my ship needed one-third of that. The space saved by such should grant more than 10'.

-------------

Take another example, jump ahead to the Farragut class DDs.

341' long, 34' wide. Four boilers. 5 x 5", 4 x 0.5" MG, 2 x 21" TT.

One 5" gun is ~19' long. The funnel pair is ~45' long.

Subtract 5' for the funnel size, 341-5 = 336'. Subtract two 5" guns and the difference between the 4" and 5", 336-((3x19)+(2x4)) = 271'. Subtract the working space around these guns, I assume 5' per gun, 271-(5x5) = 246'.

I am 16' over but the crew size for the Farragut is 160, my ship's complement is less than a fourth in size. This, again, more than covers it.

@Guinness

Then let's try to estimate the crew size:

We have two guns here, I assume three people per gun. 6 people.
We have three TTs here; from what I've seen its looks like three people per TT. 18 people.
For the bridge we should have 4 people at most.
Machinery people! This is oil-fired, so less manpower extensive. I would reckon two per per boiler 9ccorect me if I'm wrong). With two boilers this comes out to 4 people.

Total it up, 32 people. I've been simming it as if I had 39 people so I have space. Granted the picture doesn't look quite right in this respect but the picture's to give a general idea of where everything will be. I'll go back to the picture tomorrow and enlarge the superstructure.

[Guinness]

The Flush Deckers were considered overarmed in their day. The first thing the RN did with them was strip off some of the armament. They were also quite lightly built.

But you've hit on the important point: compliment.

SS2 calculates complement only by displacement. It doesn't make any judgements about what armament you are carrying.

The flush deckers had a crew of ~100. This was the minimum required to operate the ship, including it's armament. So a ship like yours with equivalent armament would be expected to need a roughly equivalent crew. Well, two less guns probably means 12 less men. SS2 doesn't reveal that, but this historical example gives us good guidance.

The flush deckers were a very tight fit for 100 men on around 1000t displacement. Your ship would be a very tight fit for 88. In fact, almost all of them would be sleeping on deck. I shudder to think what they might eat.

[Tanthalas]

IDK about in 1920 but I can tell you that on a "Modern" LHD (USS Boxer which I have spent some small amount of time on) the Engine room watch is 8 people per boiler room.  How that relates to our period I wouldnt know but I cant imagine the numbers have gone up in the Interem

[Guinness]

I've got those numbers all on my bookshelf somewhere. I'll try to dig them up.

I remember 6 men to crew a single 4 inch gun. That does *not* include ammunition passers.

I believe the RN had 1 PO and 3 ratings per Oil fired boiler, per watch, and something like 5 or 6 men in the turbine spaces, also per watch. So you're looking at 54 men for a typical Oil fired DD for machinery. Add a bunch more if you are firing with Coal.

So just guns and engines alone, on a 3 gunned ship, you've got 72 men right there, not including officers, and various other necessary ratings, other armament, etc. etc.

[Sachmle]

Even on a DD the galley crew would have to be at least 8-10 per shift. Then there's 2 for the radio room per shift, navigation/helmsmen, ect..100 seems to little honestly when one considers the massive amount of redundancy factored into warships. Also remember, whatever numbers you come up w/ Logi, multiply by at least 3 for different work shifts.

[Guinness]

The USN and RN at least seemed to staff watches for engine room and ship's navigation duty, and sometimes for the galley, but for most other jobs did not staff full 24x7 watches, at least in peacetime.

This caused great strain during both wars, when DDs on escort duty were effectively at action stations all the time.

Normal complement for the RN was 100-120 (depending on the class), but Friedman says that up to 30 more men were accomodated on older ships during WW2 for long range escort duty. Good thing they were all sleepign in hammocks. :)

[Logi]

I'll say this simply:

The ships runs on three shifts:

There's two boilers (4 crewx3), two turbines (5 crewx3), two 3" guns (8 crew), two MGs (2 crew), three TTs (9 crewx3), one bridge (5 crewx3), gallery crew (4 crewx3). DONE.

91 crew members.

But this isn't wartime so I don't see why we would reach that number. Chances are its not going to be extreme alert time so a loose12-hour shift will work out. Chances are, the ship won't be operating 24/7. Let's see here for that to happen the ship must have traveled 2016nm at 12 kts. Its not going to be traveling that long nor at 12kts if its patrolling.....

[eltf177]

Don't 21-inch TT's require two tons each, not one?

[maddox]

1908 tech does need 1 ton.  It's the Big 1913 tech that requeres 2 ton each.