NUS Shipyards

[Jefgte]

Actually on Bahia Blanco Slipway
This BB "ll be commissioned in 1919



Independencia, NUS Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
  25.265 t light; 26.794 t standard; 28.710 t normal; 30.243 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
  629,69 ft / 623,36 ft x 98,43 ft x 28,87 ft (normal load)
  191,93 m / 190,00 m x 30,00 m  x 8,80 m

Armament:
     12 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.230,19lbs / 558,00kg shells, 1914 Model
    Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
    on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     18 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1905 Model
    Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
    on side, evenly spread
    8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
     8 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1905 Model
    Quick firing guns in deck mounts
    on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     4 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1905 Model
    Machine guns in deck mounts
    on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
  Weight of broadside 16.816 lbs / 7.628 kg
  Shells per gun, main battery: 100
  3 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
  Main:   13,4" / 340 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
  Ends:   4,33" / 110 mm   209,97 ft / 64,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
    3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
  Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
    Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
     1,38" / 35 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   22,97 ft / 7,00 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
  Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      12,2" / 310 mm
  2nd:   5,91" / 150 mm         -               -
  3rd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
  4th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
  Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
  Geared drive, 4 shafts, 39.628 shp / 29.563 Kw = 22,00 kts
  Range 8.500nm at 12,00 kts
  Bunker at max displacement = 3.449 tons

Complement:
  1.102 - 1.433

Cost:
  £4,176 million / $16,705 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
  Armament: 2.102 tons, 7,3 %
  Armour: 10.156 tons, 35,4 %
     - Belts: 4.202 tons, 14,6 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 480 tons, 1,7 %
     - Armament: 2.819 tons, 9,8 %
     - Armour Deck: 2.536 tons, 8,8 %
     - Conning Tower: 119 tons, 0,4 %
  Machinery: 1.580 tons, 5,5 %
  Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.952 tons, 38,1 %
  Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.445 tons, 12,0 %
  Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 1,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
  Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    31.005 lbs / 14.064 Kg = 25,2 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
  Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
  Metacentric height 5,8 ft / 1,8 m
  Roll period: 17,1 seconds
  Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,50
  Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
  Hull has raised forecastle
  Block coefficient: 0,567
  Length to Beam Ratio: 6,33 : 1
  'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
  Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
  Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
  Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
  Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m
  Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      23,62 ft / 7,20 m
     - Forecastle (38 %):   21,65 ft / 6,60 m (13,45 ft / 4,10 m aft of break)
     - Mid (60 %):      13,45 ft / 4,10 m
     - Quarterdeck (20 %):   13,45 ft / 4,10 m
     - Stern:      13,45 ft / 4,10 m
     - Average freeboard:   16,87 ft / 5,14 m
  Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
  Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95,9 %
     - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,2 %
  Waterplane Area: 43.518 Square feet or 4.043 Square metres
  Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
  Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 922 Kg/sq metre
  Hull strength (Relative):
     - Cross-sectional: 0,97
     - Longitudinal: 1,25
     - Overall: 1,00
  Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
  Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
  Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[TexanCowboy]

The conning tower can't resist a regular HE shell. Try to increase that to 12''.

[Logi]

Nah I would say its too heavy already. I try to keep it to 4" armour; enough to stop splinters but not enough to stop the enemy shell.

The problem is even if you armour so the shell can't penetrate, the resulting shockwaves will render the electronics in the CT useless. Not to mention the personnel inside tossed around like ragdolls.

With light armour the shell will just cleaning pass through, it'll fly in from one side and other the other without any chance to explode. Only a few personnel are lsot and the electronics are undamaged.

But that's just my approach.

[Sachmle]

The conning tower can't resist a regular HE shell. Try to increase that to 12''.

If something that would fire HE at your CT is close enough to fire HE at you CT you've got bigger problems than the CL/DD that's shooting at you, namely it's torpedoes.

[Jefgte]

I agree with you.
This was an Argentina concept, not a Peruvian concept.

I could probably decrease misc. weight & increase CT armour.


Jef

[Kaiser Kirk]

The problem is even if you armour so the shell can't penetrate, the resulting shockwaves will render the electronics in the CT useless. Not to mention the personnel inside tossed around like ragdolls.

That was the British theory at the end, plus senior officers tend to be outside the armor anyhow to look around.  However, as PoW at Denmark strait shows, folks in unarmored areas can take casualties from large shells just passing through.  I suppose folks in lightly armored areas could be damaged by ejected armor chunks as well.

However electronics will be minimal in this time frame. One of the issues I think was that as electronics grew, became more difficult to fit inside a conning tower anyhow. Thats not yet a problem here.  Plus I wonder if it's easier to repair electronics damaged by shockwave, or damaged by chunks of metal?

I wonder how an outer armor shell with a void space and inner liner would work for buffering the shockwave of a non-penetration?

[Logi]

I have no clue, but it saves weight :P

[Jefgte]

I remember too that the blockaus of the Bismarck (360mm) was destroyed by a Rodney shell.

Hmmmm, I prefer to increase the thickness ot Independencia blockhaus.


Jef

[ctwaterman]

I remember too that the blockaus of the Bismarck (360mm) was destroyed by a Rodney shell.

Hmmmm, I prefer to increase the thickness ot Independencia blockhaus.

Jef

Even 360 mm of armor can be penetrated by a 406mm 16" shell fired at the ranges Rodney was firing at bismark.

Charles

[Jefgte]

Now NUS had quad turrets -
Here is a possible AC with 2T4x234-

12000t, NUS AC laid down 1920 (Engine 1918)

Displacement:
   12 000 t light; 12 503 t standard; 13 637 t normal; 14 544 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   649.61 ft / 649.61 ft x 67.26 ft x 26.01 ft (normal load)
   198.00 m / 198.00 m x 20.50 m  x 7.93 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (2x4 guns), 389.34lbs / 176.60kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (4x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3 379 lbs / 1 533 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   3.15" / 80 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   9.45 ft / 2.88 m
     26.25 ft / 8.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   3.15" / 80 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.38" / 35 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 96 000 shp / 71 616 Kw = 32.04 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 042 tons

Complement:
   630 - 820

Cost:
   £2.977 million / $11.909 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 422 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 2 285 tons, 16.8 %
      - Belts: 1 159 tons, 8.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 374 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 694 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3 463 tons, 25.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 529 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 637 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12 643 lbs / 5 735 Kg = 32.5 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.420
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.66 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.93 ft / 7.60 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Stern:      17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.24 ft / 5.87 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 27 238 Square feet or 2 531 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 609 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[mentat]

I really like the BB - handsome ship. When I see the profile - I always think she's good for 28 knots - she looks that fast - but i guess that would cost a lot more ..

The AC is very interesting - packs quite a punch and fast - same speed and firepower as the Wheelers - although less armour and range

Do you have parrticular role(s) in mind?  She has a lot of TT but not really long range for raiding

I do have a few comments/quibbles:

   Quad 9.2 - is it beamy enough to fit well? 

  Quads make very vulnerable to 1 bad hit - 323 is nearest alternative

   Armour protection seems to be good vs. 8" opponents only - not so good vs. anything bigger and Deck seems a bit on the thin side

Still a handy ship though  - yoiu making a pic :)

[Jefgte]

...Quad 9.2 - is it beamy enough to fit well? 

  Quads make very vulnerable to 1 bad hit - 323 is nearest alternative
...

Quads are inheritance from NUS story...

That's just a test with "What is it possible to built" with 2T4x234 at 30kts.
So, no drawing  ;D

Drawings are reserved for Ship in Armada  :D


Jef

[Guinness]

Wheeler's twin barbettes are 7.2 meters in outside diameter. This is probably a bit oversized. the guns are around .25 meters apart at the barrel.

So I think a quad 9.2" gun mount could be done with a barbette that is a meter bigger, maybe 1.5 meters. So let's just say 9 meters. That ought to leave 10 or 11 meters between barbette and side of ship, which with no TDS is enough.

Now how well a the magazines will fit, how close they'd be to the waterline, etc. would require more work, but I think it's doable.

[mentat]

i think the fit might be tighter than that

   Barbettes - if twin is 7.2   i'd guess a quad fair bit bigger -  11m?

    Given quite fine BC = 0.42 - Beam at position of forward turret - 16-17m rather than 20m

- that's a bit tight isn't it?

[Jefgte]

I have choose Panzerschiff beam for reference ( ;D)
20.3m for T3x280
That's certainly enough for T4x234


This study is not a Wheeler beater, just a test for the T4x234 at 32kts.
hmmm....12000t vs 16000t mean nearly no chance for this AC.


Jef