Swiss Concepts...

[Tanthalas]

But you are in the minority, everyone else is rolling out well balanced fast battleships, and max destroyers.

as I understand it there are 3 classes of Fast BB under construction curently in the Nverse

Hood is well Hood
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=2130

Asfaloth is Mackensen
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=1954

Im not exactly who the french ship would analog to but Proly USS Lexington.

So realy there are no more "Fast BBs" building than was historicly the case (fewer actualy as Hood is only intended to be a singleton, and the french are only building 2 of theirs)

[Desertfox]

You forgot the Oceans, De Ruyters, and Colussus, oh and the new Akagi.

[Walter]

Akagi is not a Fast BB. As the designation indicates, it is classified as a Cruiser Class 1. :D

The fast BB version I have (the original design) is slightly different and a bit slower.

[Blooded]

If there is anything that is fixed in this design, it's the main armament. I deliberately want a poor main armament so that there is a reason to not finish these ships as planned or rebuild them and have them end up as carriers. Also the main armament will be reused for another ship I have planned later on.

What a load....    >:( ::)

[The Rock Doctor]

The out-of-character rationale for building flawed ships is fine - but why are the Swiss seeking to build Fisher follies?

[mentat]

  Yes - Fisher's Real Folly was the Baltic 2nd front Amphibious Invasion Plan - to help the Russian's into Germany by the back door. in the context of the plan - 'Outrageous', 'Uproarious' and 'Spurious' - made perfect 'sense'  :D

- so what Grand Scheme does NS have for this design - long range Commerce raiding? - long range Coastal attack? ....

[Desertfox]

Both... attacks on China (both) or operations in the Dutch East Indies require such ships, and they make excellent raiders. What do you do when a 33knots ship, packing 14" guns gets lose in your shipping lanes?

[Sachmle]

Both... attacks on China (both) or operations in the Dutch East Indies require such ships, and they make excellent raiders. What do you do when a 33knots ship, packing 14" guns gets lose in your shipping lanes?

When it's only got 4 main guns and 5" armor? Send the BCs out in force and a few CLs to scout. 14" guns or not, she runs into anything w/ real armor all she can do is run away. Even the 11" guns on Moltke would shred her. You can run, and 14" will hurt especially w/ only 8" armor on the M's, but if you're running away...who's sinking the shipping?

[Desertfox]

And thereby she has done her job, drawing away the Moltke from more important jobs. Plus she could just sit out of Motlke's range and blast away untill something hits. You need at least a 30 knot ship with 8x12" guns, to keep her away. Can you afford to build such a ship?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
A decent semi-dreadnaught with 1908/12 FC is enough to keep those ships away. Good luck with hitting anything at long range with those four guns.

Borys

[Sachmle]

And thereby she has done her job, drawing away the Moltke from more important jobs. Plus she could just sit out of Motlke's range and blast away untill something hits. You need at least a 30 knot ship with 8x12" guns, to keep her away. Can you afford to build such a ship?

Like this?

SMS Defflinger, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   25,350 t light; 26,339 t standard; 28,234 t normal; 29,750 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   662.71 ft / 656.17 ft x 92.68 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
   202.00 m / 200.00 m x 28.25 m  x 9.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 68.34lbs / 31.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,236 lbs / 3,736 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   5 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.06" / 230 mm   470.80 ft / 143.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   185.37 ft / 56.50 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   470.80 ft / 143.50 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.77" / 45 mm   470.80 ft / 143.50 m   29.53 ft / 9.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   4th:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 128,003 shp / 95,490 Kw = 30.05 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,412 tons

Complement:
   1,088 - 1,415

Cost:
   £3.933 million / $15.732 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,010 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 9,251 tons, 32.8 %
      - Belts: 3,731 tons, 13.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 911 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,069 tons, 7.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,319 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 220 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,769 tons, 16.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,870 tons, 35.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,884 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,202 lbs / 15,060 Kg = 38.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   27.89 ft / 8.50 m (26.25 ft / 8.00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (61 %):      24.61 ft / 7.50 m (17.22 ft / 5.25 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Stern:      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.97 ft / 7.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,455 Square feet or 3,944 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 159 lbs/sq ft or 777 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250t Fire Control Installation
25t Long Range Markoni Installation
25t 5 500mm Torpedoes per tube
25t Sehendes Auge Installation
125t Reserve Weight

[mentat]

most effective and cost effective raider (what a great topic!) - would look like 8 k tons - high speed, very long range, good habitability -  6/8 x 6" guns and lots of Torps - esp 18" to despatch Merchant ships

  17k tons + 14" guns is massive overkill !!

[Guinness]

If you are worried about carrying small torpedoes just to quickly dispatch a merchant ship, why not just carry limpet mine type devices with timed fuses on them. Take a boat over, attach mine at waterline, blow big hole in ship.

It would take a little more time (maybe, if the crew is well drilled and boat and mines are at the ready, probably not that much more time). But the little mines would be a lot lighter and cheaper and take up less space than even the 18" torpedoes.

For the few times you just have to fire a torpedo, say in heavy weather or when you are in a real hurry, one of your compliment of regular torpedoes should do the job.

[Desertfox]

Yup, that's what I'm talking about. Note that she costs 50% more...

Raiding is what the Olympias are for. But if there is the potential that these ships could be raiding, the enemy has to spend that much more on protecting its merchants. Ships that could be used elsewhere are now tied down, escorting merchants.

[The Rock Doctor]

This all sounds very promising - so why will the Swiss change their minds and not complete them?