General Kassar,fleet flagship

[ledeper]

General Kassar, Esc Bb laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   41.049 t light; 43.242 t standard; 46.527 t normal; 49.155 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   752,81 ft / 749,34 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,17 ft (normal load)
   229,46 m / 228,40 m x 33,00 m  x 9,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21.928 lbs / 9.947 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   28,61 ft / 8,72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   1,97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 83.990 shp / 62.656 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.913 tons

Complement:
   1.583 - 2.059

Cost:
   £8,355 million / $33,419 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.741 tons, 5,9 %
   Armour: 16.652 tons, 35,8 %
      - Belts: 4.905 tons, 10,5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 855 tons, 1,8 %
      - Armament: 3.756 tons, 8,1 %
      - Armour Deck: 6.753 tons, 14,5 %
      - Conning Tower: 384 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 3.129 tons, 6,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.777 tons, 38,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.478 tons, 11,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     61.517 lbs / 27.904 Kg = 30,4 x 15,9 " / 405 mm shells or 9,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,644
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Stern:      18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 61.809 Square feet or 5.742 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1.069 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,13
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Armor disposition as in Ocean class
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag facilities:50 t
Star shells :50 t
Reserve:100t

[Guinness]

Should the main battery twins be superfiring the triples? If so, I think you may want to make them "centerline ends", but it might work just as well or not better to just say 10 guns, 4 mounts, 4 guns superfiring in one battery.

[ledeper]

Oh shit,my mistake ;here is the right one uups:
General Kassar, Esc Bb laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   41.049 t light; 43.242 t standard; 46.527 t normal; 49.155 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   752,81 ft / 749,34 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,17 ft (normal load)
   229,46 m / 228,40 m x 33,00 m  x 9,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21.928 lbs / 9.947 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   28,61 ft / 8,72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   1,97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 83.990 shp / 62.656 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.913 tons

Complement:
   1.583 - 2.059

Cost:
   £8,355 million / $33,419 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.741 tons, 5,9 %
   Armour: 16.652 tons, 35,8 %
      - Belts: 4.905 tons, 10,5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 855 tons, 1,8 %
      - Armament: 3.756 tons, 8,1 %
      - Armour Deck: 6.753 tons, 14,5 %
      - Conning Tower: 384 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 3.129 tons, 6,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.777 tons, 38,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.478 tons, 11,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     61.517 lbs / 27.904 Kg = 30,4 x 15,9 " / 405 mm shells or 9,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,644
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Stern:      18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 61.809 Square feet or 5.742 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1.069 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,13
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Armor disposition as in Ocean class
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag faciliteies:50 t
Starshells :50 t
Reserve:100t

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I compared the General Kassar with Peteofi Sandor, as I had a feeling that I achieved same/more on less. The difference seems to be 6" Armoured Deck - is such thickness worthwhile?
Borys

[Tanthalas]

Ahoj!
I compared the General Kassar with Peteofi Sandor, as I had a feeling that I achieved same/more on less. The difference seems to be 6" Armoured Deck - is such thickness worthwhile?
Borys

not realy unless he plans on geting a whole lot of 500 lbs AP bombs droped on its deck...

[ledeper]

I have had a lot of speculations about it ,but the philosophy behind it is 25 mm armor should trigger a A.P shell,100mm to protect ,and "god forbid "25 mm as splinter-protection,that should be adequate against long-range plunging fire .

[Guinness]

so it's not one deck in reality, but three?

[ledeper]

yep,excatly ;D ;D just as in the Ocean class:

Deck:
25 mm capping upper belt
100 mm capping main belt
25 mm splinter deck

[Sachmle]

But even 75mm will stop penetration on almost ANY shell, now or later. Short of 16"/50 2,700lbs US superheavy shells a 75mm deck should be fine, adding the 25mm fusing deck is just icing. So you could get by with a 25mm fusing deck, a 75mm MAD, and a 25mm splinter deck, making the total deck 125mm instead of 150mm, probably save a bunch of weight.

[ledeper]

Point taken,but it only saves a 1000 t ,so ??? :) ;)

[Sachmle]

Point taken,but it only saves a 1000 t ,so ??? :) ;)

So you could build a nice DD to protect it. Or use that 1000t to put real armor on you secondary guns (50mm face armor only? So open mounts, in the North Sea? No hoist armor? That would suck if one took a direct hit and set off the magazine for the whole lot of them) or extend the TDS up to the water line (8.72m deep TDS, 9.5m deep hull) so a shallow torpedo/floating mine doesn't sink you.

[ledeper]

Final draft:General Kassar, Esc Bb laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   40.915 t light; 43.105 t standard; 46.383 t normal; 49.005 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   752,81 ft / 749,34 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,17 ft (normal load)
   229,46 m / 228,40 m x 33,00 m  x 9,50 m

Armament:
     6 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 - 15,94" / 405 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.026,91lbs / 919,39kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
     16 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     6 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21.928 lbs / 9.947 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   15,78 ft / 4,81 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   31,99 ft / 9,75 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   13,8" / 350 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      13,8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   2,95" / 75 mm   1,97" / 50 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 5,51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 83.769 shp / 62.492 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.900 tons

Complement:
   1.579 - 2.054

Cost:
   £8,343 million / $33,372 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.741 tons, 5,9 %
   Armour: 16.349 tons, 35,2 %
      - Belts: 4.904 tons, 10,6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 955 tons, 2,1 %
      - Armament: 3.815 tons, 8,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 6.291 tons, 13,6 %
      - Conning Tower: 383 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 3.121 tons, 6,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.954 tons, 38,7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.468 tons, 11,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     61.039 lbs / 27.687 Kg = 30,1 x 15,9 " / 405 mm shells or 9,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 6,9 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,642
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Stern:      18,77 ft / 5,72 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 61.695 Square feet or 5.732 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 221 lbs/sq ft or 1.081 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,13
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Armor disposition:
AON
Deck:
25 mm capping upper belt
75 mm capping main belt
25 mm splinter deck
Misc Weight:
2x FC :500t
L/RW/L:25 t
Seendes augen :25 t
Flag faciliteies:50 t
Starshells :50 t
Reserve:100t

[Borys]

Ahoj!

But even 75mm will stop penetration on almost ANY shell, now or later. Short of 16"/50 2,700lbs US superheavy shells a 75mm deck should be fine, adding the 25mm fusing deck is just icing.

What about 16,5"/40 2500 lbs?
Borys

[Sachmle]

Ahoj!

But even 75mm will stop penetration on almost ANY shell, now or later. Short of 16"/50 2,700lbs US superheavy shells a 75mm deck should be fine, adding the 25mm fusing deck is just icing.

What about 16,5"/40 2500 lbs?
Borys

I don't know Borys, I have *hiss*Vista*hiss* now so I can't run BigGun to check.

[Logi]

Using Big Gun:

Since I think from the information I've seen 25mm isn't enough to decap a 16.5" shell I'm assuming it's just a 75mm (2.95") deck. (Supposedly you need somewhere between 1.25" and 1.5" to decap a 16.5" projectile)

Shell Form Factor 0.8 (WW1)
Armour: Face-hardened WW1 Era (0.83)

@45 - 14.55"
@30 - 9.79"
@20 - 6.36"
@15 - 4.98"
@10 - 3.62"

Now if we assume the shell was decapped before it hit the 75mm deck...

@45 - 8.96"
@30 - 6.73"
@20 - 4.37"
@15 - 3.42"
@10 - 2.48"

--------------

You need a thicker deck to stop a shell if its not decapped. The deck is lacking a bit more than 1" to stop shell at the typical range of this period (15~20 degrees)