Second Caliphate Speculative Design Studies

[P3D]

Why you need 6000nm@12kts range at all? 3000@10-12kts would be adequate, the ship won't need to do even week-long patrols, is unusable for any kind of commerce raiding, and any long-range redeployment during war is risky - they are outgunned by most destroyers.

Make the 75mm guns AA, replace the heavy shields with something only MG-proof for faster training. This allows you to get rid of the 40mm guns altogether (at least 10 crewmembers). Reduce freeboard by 0.5m, these ships would operate mostly in calm waters, and that'd make most of the tasks done by the boat easier. Also reduce draught to ~1.5-1.8m, most of the stability would come from the bilge keels.

If you want CT armor, make it only MG-proof.

[Guinness]

The whole idea is to produce a very cheap (and therefore potentially numerous) commerce raider on the high seas, to give my likely adversaries something to chase. For the same price as (for instance) that 12,000 ton cruiser above, 24 of these can be built. If well positioned to escape to sea before hand, that could mean a whole lot of enemy ships tied up trying to find them. If they get cornered by a bigger warship, the crew simply sets charges, jumps in boats, and surrenders.

[Guinness]

I hope no one at work notices I just don't feel like working today....

Just for good measure: one more. It started with the idea of that 12,000ish ton cruiser but with bigger guns, and ended up being a sort flagship for the Ottomans. Speed is adequate to form a cohesive squadron with the other two Ottoman BCs, armor and armament is better. It really just turned out to be a German Battlecruiser, interestingly...

It would be completely outclassed but just about everything else out there building today, so I expect would be a poor investment, but nonetheless:

10x305mm, Ottoman Empire Capital Ship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   23,100 t light; 24,201 t standard; 25,327 t normal; 26,227 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   631.55 ft / 623.36 ft x 88.58 ft x 28.67 ft (normal load)
   192.50 m / 190.00 m x 27.00 m  x 8.74 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,188 lbs / 4,621 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   16 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   429.79 ft / 131.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   193.57 ft / 59.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.18" / 30 mm   429.79 ft / 131.00 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   12.6" / 320 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 69,000 shp / 51,474 Kw = 26.02 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,027 tons

Complement:
   1,003 - 1,304

Cost:
   £6.018 million / $24.072 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,236 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 9,199 tons, 36.3 %
      - Belts: 4,514 tons, 17.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 616 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 2,433 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,417 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 219 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,571 tons, 10.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,655 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,227 tons, 8.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 439 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,635 lbs / 13,896 Kg = 35.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Mid (42 %):      27.23 ft / 8.30 m (16.08 ft / 4.90 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.19 ft / 6.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 38,900 Square feet or 3,614 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 834 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.52
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:
250t: Firecontrol
32t: 4x21" Torpedo tubes each with 4 reloads
25t: Long Range Wireless
80t: Flag Facilities
52t: Reserve

[miketr]

Its the speed...  it costs you a lot to get it.  What could you get in terms of armor and displacement for a top end speed of 23 knots?

Any luck with designing a heavier gun?

Michael

[P3D]

Tasking the gunboat with commerce raiding is kindof suicidal. They would most probably operate in closed waters. Give the ship 100mm guns and two more torpedoes. But this is the kind of task that calls for submarines, not surface raiders that would be stopped by the first AMC they encounter.

About the big ship. I'd go shopping to see if anyone would build triple/quad turrets with 12-14" guns. The following is an extreme example - squeezed in lvl2 size. The ship won't leave the Mediterranean, and 5m freeboard is adequate, so I don't care what SS2 thinks about it. It also says bad steadiness, but 16.9s roll period should be fine. No heavy secondaries either, something had to give.

HMS Sultan Makeupanamiye, Ottoman battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   22,497 t light; 23,756 t standard; 24,858 t normal; 25,740 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 92.85 ft x 26.25 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 28.30 m  x 8.00 m

Armament:
     9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,231.26lbs / 558.49kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
     10 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4 mounts), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11,345 lbs / 5,146 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   16 - 23.6" / 600 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   449.48 ft / 137.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   108.27 ft / 33.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 124 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   449.48 ft / 137.00 m   27.89 ft / 8.50 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 75,537 shp / 56,351 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,984 tons

Complement:
   989 - 1,286

Cost:
   £3.883 million / $15.530 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,418 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 8,150 tons, 32.8 %
      - Belts: 3,132 tons, 12.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 730 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 2,352 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,718 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 217 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,814 tons, 11.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,765 tons, 39.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,361 tons, 9.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,607 lbs / 11,615 Kg = 20.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.640
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Mid (45 %):      24.61 ft / 7.50 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.36 ft / 6.21 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 122.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 39,312 Square feet or 3,652 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Ithekro]

For a cheap, non-submarine raider, I would suggest a long range destroyer sized design built with a cruiser hull and 2x4" guns rather than the 75mm cannon. (I say that because most systems don't count anything under 3" as a viable ship to ship weapon...some even go as far as to make it so the 88mm isn't viable).

It could be done on a roughly 700 ton ship, but if you want speed and range to go with you limited firepower "cheap" raider, you'll probably need to go up to 1,000 tons....but you could build 12 of those verses one larger cruiser.

If you want a semi-powerful raiding cruiser with 210mm cannon what about two triple mounts and then 4-5" secondary to use against destroyers and gunboats?...Or build the raider and an anti-destroyer escort for when it it in confined waters before getting to the open ocean where it would do its work.   The anti-destroyer escort could be a Atlanta style vessel with lots or 5" type turrets as those and Brooklyn types are really good destroyer killers with their rapid fire main guns.

(It would be early yet for those designs, but the principle is there).

The idea would be to over armoe the raider yet have good speed so that even with only 6 main guns your enemies would need to send out something large and fast to engage you.  The speed cuts out most battleships.  The armor would cut out any cruiser guns from doing serious damage to you while your guns could make them pay for attempting to stop you.

That would leave your main enemy as the torpedo and Battlecruisers.

[Guinness]

Ithekro: I have indeed kicked around the idea of (essentially) a Panzerschiffe, of say ~28 knots, 6x28cm, some secondaries (maybe 8 120mm, maybe less). We already have such ships in the Nverse, of course.

But for the moment, continuing the thought of a smaller gunboat, I get this. Now armored and armed with 2x105mm. This should still be more than sufficient to sink merchants, but would also be a tougher target for DDs at least. The Ottomans could still build these in great numbers.

P3D: I agree on Subs, and ultimately they are where the Ottomans are headed. These sorts of ships might be stopgaps, until the requisite tech is developed.

Gunboat 2 105mm Diesel Armored, Ottoman Empire Gunboat laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   600 t light; 625 t standard; 739 t normal; 830 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   216.54 ft / 206.69 ft x 25.75 ft x 8.52 ft (normal load)
   66.00 m / 63.00 m x 7.85 m  x 2.60 m

Armament:
     2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 38.36lbs / 17.40kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     3 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
     on centreline amidships
     4 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 83 lbs / 38 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 196
   2 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.18" / 30 mm   116.47 ft / 35.50 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.18" / 30 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 0.79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,200 shp / 3,133 Kw = 20.02 kts
   Range 5,300nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 206 tons

Complement:
   70 - 92

Cost:
   £0.121 million / $0.482 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 10 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 112 tons, 15.2 %
      - Belts: 49 tons, 6.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 55 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 156 tons, 21.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 282 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 18.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 5.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,312 lbs / 595 Kg = 37.1 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 92 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.85

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.03 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.38 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.90 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Forecastle (12 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (58 %):      15.75 ft / 4.80 m (7.87 ft / 2.40 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
      - Stern:      8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.80 ft / 3.90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,785 Square feet or 352 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 174 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.82
      - Longitudinal: 5.80
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weight:
4t: 2 Torpedoes (in fixed athwartship above water tubes)
25t: Long Range Wireless
11t: Other stuff , which might include extra stores and provisions, extra coal, mines, or minesweeping gear

[Guinness]

Its the speed...  it costs you a lot to get it.  What could you get in terms of armor and displacement for a top end speed of 23 knots?

Any luck with designing a heavier gun?

Michael

Trying to go smaller with 10x305mm and 23 knots doesn't really reveal much of interest, at least in quick tweaking.

Instead I got carried away, and go what's below. It feels like something Rocky or Borys would build. :)

As far as bigger guns: sometime soon, either by purchase, license, or eventually development.

15x305mm, Ottoman Empire Capital Ship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30,000 t light; 31,508 t standard; 32,855 t normal; 33,933 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   700.45 ft / 692.26 ft x 95.14 ft x 31.18 ft (normal load)
   213.50 m / 211.00 m x 29.00 m  x 9.50 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,658 lbs / 6,649 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   16 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.2" / 310 mm   480.64 ft / 146.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   211.61 ft / 64.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.18" / 30 mm   480.64 ft / 146.50 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      12.2" / 310 mm
   2nd:   12.6" / 320 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 27.01 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,425 tons

Complement:
   1,219 - 1,586

Cost:
   £8.213 million / $32.850 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,776 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 11,492 tons, 35.0 %
      - Belts: 5,101 tons, 15.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 689 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 3,075 tons, 9.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,366 tons, 7.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 261 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,353 tons, 10.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,930 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,856 tons, 8.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     38,341 lbs / 17,391 Kg = 44.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.28 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Mid (51 %):      27.23 ft / 8.30 m (16.08 ft / 4.90 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.15 ft / 6.75 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,399 Square feet or 4,311 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 939 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.45
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:
250t: Firecontrol
32t: 4x21" Torpedo tubes each with 4 reloads
25t: Long Range Wireless
100t: Flag Facilities
42t: Reserve

[miketr]

So you have triples wing mounted?

      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships

Couldn't you get a standard 4x3 12" all centerline with 2 turrets superfiring?

Over all there only advantage is their speed.  I would be very willing to put my 13" DN's and the 13.78" DN's into a stand up fight vs. ships like this.  As after all I would have 4 of them vs. your 2 I would assume.

If you have 12" guns and good engines I would build a pure cruiser in the 30+ range. 

Michael

[Sachmle]

The problem really lies in that there are no CAs in Nverse really. There are a few, granted, but in general everyone has either CLs (5-8000t 6"/15cm guns 28-32kts) or BCs (15-30000t, 12" or larger guns 25-32kts). That leaves a middle ground (8-15000t, 8-10" guns, 28-32kts) but it's either overkill for CLs or bait for BCs.

[Guinness]

So you have triples wing mounted?

Sure. It's fun!

Couldn't you get a standard 4x3 12" all centerline with 2 turrets superfiring?

Yeah, probably. The wing turrets are meant to have some cross deck arcs.

If you have 12" guns and good engines I would build a pure cruiser in the 30+ range. 

Well, I don't have good engines, but I could build something like what's below.

The problem really lies in that there are no CAs in Nverse really. There are a few, granted, but in general everyone has either CLs (5-8000t 6"/15cm guns 28-32kts) or BCs (15-30000t, 12" or larger guns 25-32kts). That leaves a middle ground (8-15000t, 8-10" guns, 28-32kts) but it's either overkill for CLs or bait for BCs.

See, I like to imagine what might have been built if Washington hadn't limited "Cruisers" to 10,000 tons. I suspect that the Nverse is actually fairly well representative of what might have been. Several navies would almost certainly have hung with 6" armed light cruisers of various sorts, but I also suspect a few super-heavy-but-not-battlecruisers would have appeared too.

At any rate, here's this. If the Ottomans were to build anything this big, it would almost certainly be because they were building a flagship of sorts.

9x305mm Fast, Ottoman Empire Capital Ship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30,000 t light; 31,182 t standard; 32,654 t normal; 33,832 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   702.10 ft / 692.26 ft x 95.14 ft x 31.55 ft (normal load)
   214.00 m / 211.00 m x 29.00 m  x 9.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9,294 lbs / 4,216 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   16 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.2" / 310 mm   506.89 ft / 154.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   185.04 ft / 56.40 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.18" / 30 mm   506.89 ft / 154.50 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      12.2" / 310 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      4.72" / 120 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 12.20" / 310 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 30.25 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,650 tons

Complement:
   1,213 - 1,578

Cost:
   £7.439 million / $29.758 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,128 tons, 3.5 %
   Armour: 10,837 tons, 33.2 %
      - Belts: 4,704 tons, 14.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 727 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armament: 2,459 tons, 7.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,678 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 269 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 5,216 tons, 16.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,370 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,654 tons, 8.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41,007 lbs / 18,600 Kg = 47.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.28 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 16.70 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32.81 ft / 10.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   32.15 ft / 9.80 m
      - Mid (64 %):      31.50 ft / 9.60 m (20.01 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   27.80 ft / 8.47 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 204.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,966 Square feet or 4,270 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 857 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.78
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:
250t: Firecontrol
32t: 4x21" Torpedo tubes each with 4 reloads
25t: Long Range Wireless
100t: Flag Facilities
42t: Reserve

[Ithekro]

Or you could take a step backwards and design a fast predreadnought type ship.  4x12" guns and 210mm wing turrets with 4-5" anti-destroyer guns on a 30 knot hull.  You could even mount a pair of triple or quad torpedo tubes to sink those ships you can't take as prizes.  Armored to battlecruiser standards...or at least enough to withstand maybe 10" gun fire, so they have to send the big guns if they want you sunk.

Just to be different.  The 12" would be there for intimidation and in case they did come after you with a battlecruiser.  The wing 210mm guns would be the primary weapons for most engagements...especially if you could fit several onboard (or could manage 210mm triple turrets on the wings).

[miketr]

9x305mm Fast, Ottoman Empire Capital Ship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

If you had the BP to build a pair of them I would go with that design to be honest.  I would expect that down the road you could replace the 12" triples with a twin 14" weapon or not.  The ship can out run all but a few ships out there and I can't think of any that it can't out run that it can't take in a stand up fight.

Michael

[Guinness]

Continuing that theme, I wanted to see what 30k tons could get me with 12 305mm guns:

12x305mm Fast, Ottoman Empire Capital Ship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30,000 t light; 31,357 t standard; 32,826 t normal; 34,001 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   680.76 ft / 672.57 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.77 ft (normal load)
   207.50 m / 205.00 m x 30.00 m  x 9.38 m

Armament:
      12 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x3 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,338 lbs / 5,596 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   16 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   447.83 ft / 136.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   224.41 ft / 68.40 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.18" / 30 mm   447.83 ft / 136.50 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -               -
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      4.72" / 120 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 12.99" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 100,000 shp / 74,600 Kw = 27.60 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,644 tons

Complement:
   1,219 - 1,585

Cost:
   £7.731 million / $30.922 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,503 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 11,890 tons, 36.2 %
      - Belts: 5,142 tons, 15.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 642 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 3,091 tons, 9.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,727 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 287 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,726 tons, 11.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,432 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,827 tons, 8.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42,324 lbs / 19,198 Kg = 49.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.564
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.93 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   28.54 ft / 8.70 m
      - Mid (55 %):      27.89 ft / 8.50 m (20.01 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.34 ft / 6.20 m
      - Stern:      20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.79 ft / 7.56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 181.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,810 Square feet or 4,349 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 891 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.63
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:
250t: Firecontrol
32t: 4x21" Torpedo tubes each with 4 reloads
25t: Long Range Wireless
100t: Flag Facilities
42t: Reserve

[Guinness]

And for Ithekro: a semi-dreadnought battlecruiser. I'm not crazy about this idea though...

4x305mm 12x210mm Fast, Ottoman Empire Capital Ship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30,000 t light; 31,110 t standard; 32,580 t normal; 33,757 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   702.10 ft / 692.26 ft x 95.14 ft x 31.48 ft (normal load)
   214.00 m / 211.00 m x 29.00 m  x 9.59 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x3 guns), 238.10lbs / 108.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7,681 lbs / 3,484 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   16 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.2" / 310 mm   492.13 ft / 150.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   200.13 ft / 61.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.18" / 30 mm   508.53 ft / 155.00 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      12.2" / 310 mm
   2nd:   12.6" / 320 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      4.72" / 120 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 12.20" / 310 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 30.26 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,647 tons

Complement:
   1,212 - 1,576

Cost:
   £7.173 million / $28.693 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,012 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 11,718 tons, 36.0 %
      - Belts: 5,092 tons, 15.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 729 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armament: 2,950 tons, 9.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,678 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 268 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 5,216 tons, 16.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,606 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,580 tons, 7.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41,707 lbs / 18,918 Kg = 48.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.28 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 16.70 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32.81 ft / 10.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   32.15 ft / 9.80 m
      - Mid (59 %):      31.50 ft / 9.60 m (20.01 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   27.31 ft / 8.32 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 199.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,966 Square feet or 4,270 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 808 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:
250t: Firecontrol
32t: 4x21" Torpedo tubes each with 4 reloads
25t: Long Range Wireless
100t: Flag Facilities
42t: Reserve