Second Caliphate Speculative Design Studies

[Guinness]

I'm fiddling with an 8x120mm DD (4 twins, mount and hoist) making about 31.5 knots now.

Research has revealed an interesting question I've posted in general naval discussion, however.

[Guinness]

I split the conversation about destroyers in general and merged it with that conversation here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4588.0

[Guinness]

Another concept I'll throw up on the wall and see if it sticks: The idea here is getting both a passable light cruiser and a torpedo boat tender in one ship. Operationally, this ship would lead a TB flotilla of about 20 200 TBs along with two 750t destroyers.

The question is whether or not it's worth cramming this capability into one hull. On the one hand, a small tender which can support 20 boats might be had on as little as 2300 tons or so. A passable light cruiser of similar capabilities is obtainable for 4500t easily. On the other hand, the small tender would be very slow, and would itself have no fighting value. With this ship, the flotilla, no matter what its situation can fight, with no concern for it's tender(s).

A similar ship to this, with some reworking, might also serve as transport and mothership to MTBs, which is an interesting idea too.

Cruiser/Tender, Ottoman Empire TB Support Tender laid down 1920

Displacement:
   9,000 t light; 9,352 t standard; 12,812 t normal; 15,581 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 549.54 ft x 62.34 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 167.50 m x 19.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
     8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.80lbs / 4.90kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships
     4 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 846 lbs / 384 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   259.19 ft / 79.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 73 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.57" / 40 mm

  - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 53,700 shp / 40,060 Kw = 27.01 kts
   Range 21,560nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,229 tons

Complement:
   601 - 782

Cost:
   £1.584 million / $6.336 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 110 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 1,058 tons, 8.3 %
      - Belts: 563 tons, 4.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 51 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 444 tons, 3.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,878 tons, 14.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,967 tons, 31.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,813 tons, 29.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,987 tons, 15.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,316 lbs / 9,669 Kg = 207.0 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 98 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.89

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.35 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (12 %):   24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Quarterdeck (12 %):   23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Stern:      23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.01 ft / 7.32 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,360 Square feet or 2,263 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 167 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 453 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.19
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weights:
25t: Wireless
60t: 30 Reload Torpedoes (21")
1902 tons:
1000t: Extra galleys, medical facilities, etc. to support TB flotilla, including accommodations for 400 crew and Commodore's cabin and offices
850t: Misc workshops, stores, spare parts, cranes, etc. etc.
52t: Reserve

Note: Can support up to 37 200t torpedo boats, but normally would support a squadron of 20 Coastal TBs and two 750t Destroyers

[The Rock Doctor]

If the ship gets into action, and is damaged or sunk, the flotilla no longer has a depot ship. 

I wouldn't combine the functions.  Let the cruiser be a cruiser, and build a reasonably mobile depot ship, to civilian standards, as a separate unit.

[Guinness]

True, but if this ship gets sunk, I'm not so sure there will be many TBs for it to support either...

[miketr]

What Rocky said.  

Also once the union of the Ottomans and Mughals occur you should have some extra cash what about just building some type 0 bases along the coast?  $5 and 0.5 BP

[Guinness]

I'm thinking of building some more Type 0 ports for the Ottomans before then too. Still, I like the idea of supporting these little boats with tenders so that the enemy will know they can be "based" in a lot more places, and therefore would have to commit more forces to try to contain them. There's lots of little places for these boats, even a whole flotilla of them, to hide in the Agean.

At least that's the thought here. Have the entire flotilla, including tender slip out, be able to transit up to 1200 nm or so at 15 knots, find a good place to hide out and refuel for a day or so, then attack from a direction the enemy hopefully isn't expecting. Or something like that.

Like I said, it's an option I decided to try out.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I've entertained the idea of "tenders" that also carry the MTBs/TBs, to allow operations far, far from home. Mix in a small landing force, and you can seize fishing ports.

[Guinness]

A new and more conventional design here. A cruiser on the drawing board for the Ottomans c. 1920. Other than requiring a type 3 DD, I'm not completely unhappy with this...

Cruiser "A", Ottoman Empire Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
   12,800 t light; 13,355 t standard; 14,754 t normal; 15,873 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   593.82 ft / 590.55 ft x 75.46 ft x 22.63 ft (normal load)
   181.00 m / 180.00 m x 23.00 m  x 6.90 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 238.10lbs / 108.00kg shells, 1923 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 38.36lbs / 17.40kg shells, 1923 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1923 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,212 lbs / 1,003 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 205

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   427.59 ft / 130.33 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 125,000 shp / 93,250 Kw = 32.83 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,518 tons

Complement:
   669 - 870

Cost:
   £3.782 million / $15.127 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 318 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 2,438 tons, 16.5 %
      - Belts: 864 tons, 5.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 430 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,093 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 4,178 tons, 28.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,543 tons, 37.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,954 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 323 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,574 lbs / 6,611 Kg = 51.6 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.512
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.68 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   25.92 ft / 7.90 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.61 ft / 7.50 m (16.73 ft / 5.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (12 %):   17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Stern:      18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.15 ft / 7.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 198.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,019 Square feet or 2,789 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 589 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.68
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TexanCowboy]

Not a huge fan of this design. Way too much speed and not enough armour. Why do the Ottoman's need fast cruisers? Cut down the speed to 32 knots and add some more armour.

[Carthaginian]

I'm rather forced to agree with TC: too much speed, not enough armor.
The Ottomans would be looking toward survivability and firepower in their situation; high speed and long range should be secondary concerns to the largest littoral naval power in the world. Shift maybe 2 knots worth of engine weight into armor and armament, and just maybe add some torpedoes in case it gets into a battle over one of the many straits that the Ottomans have an interest in controlling.

She's a nice 'Wheeler Light,' but seems a poor fit to the Ottomans; a ship with a lighter MB and similar speed and armor could do all the scouting roles much more cheaply, and would be a much more economical platform to risk in scouting duties. Something this big will suffer from 'Battle Cruiser Syndrome'- possessing the caliber of guns needed to face a capital ship, they will eventually be called upon to face one and will suffer the alarmingly high attrition rate that any ship not mounting protection against it's own armament does.

Just picture the Ottoman Admiral saying "There appears to be something wrong with our bloody ships today."

[P3D]

Had to agree. The main problem is rather that the ship does not fit the probable adversaries. Like the six Austrian 29kts cruisers with 7.5" guns. I see the need for 33kts speed (same as some destroyers in the Ottoman fleet) but these ships are too large to be flotilla leaders imho.

I'm rather forced to agree with TC: too much speed, not enough armor.
The Ottomans would be looking toward survivability and firepower in their situation; high speed and long range should be secondary concerns to the largest littoral naval power in the world. Shift maybe 2 knots worth of engine weight into armor and armament, and just maybe add some torpedoes in case it gets into a battle over one of the many straits that the Ottomans have an interest in controlling.

She's a nice 'Wheeler Light,' but seems a poor fit to the Ottomans; a ship with a lighter MB and similar speed and armor could do all the scouting roles much more cheaply, and would be a much more economical platform to risk in scouting duties. Something this big will suffer from 'Battle Cruiser Syndrome'- possessing the caliber of guns needed to face a capital ship, they will eventually be called upon to face one and will suffer the alarmingly high attrition rate that any ship not mounting protection against it's own armament does.

Just picture the Ottoman Admiral saying "There appears to be something wrong with our bloody ships today."

[Carthaginian]

Had to agree. The main problem is rather that the ship does not fit the probable adversaries. Like the six Austrian 29kts cruisers with 7.5" guns. I see the need for 33kts speed (same as some destroyers in the Ottoman fleet) but these ships are too large to be flotilla leaders imho.

Another advantage- one P3D hit on in passing but didn't say outright- a ship of similar capabilities with only the tonnage needed to mount a 6-7.5" battery could probably be built to fit into a Type 2 DD or slip.

[P3D]

Actually, I was thinking mainly the other direction - to get a 32kts on the new battlecruiser, but that would definitely need lvl 4 docks so definitely out of the question.

I.e. on a constrained budget, the Ottomans need large ships as fleet-in-being only, to make any would-be opponent "honest" - and to force them deploy heavier units. So that one or two real heavyweights, with more than 8" guns and 3" armor. This also makes speed not that much of a priority if it is in the 27-29kts range. That'd still need lvl 3 infrastructure, though.

Besides them, 6" cruisers should be the largest ships built.

[Carthaginian]

Actually, I was thinking mainly the other direction - to get a 32kts on the new battlecruiser, but that would definitely need lvl 4 docks so definitely out of the question.

I.e. on a constrained budget, the Ottomans need large ships as fleet-in-being only, to make any would-be opponent "honest" - and to force them deploy heavier units. So that one or two real heavyweights, with more than 8" guns and 3" armor. This also makes speed not that much of a priority if it is in the 27-29kts range. That'd still need lvl 3 infrastructure, though.

Besides them, 6" cruisers should be the largest ships built.

Battle cruisers are becoming white elephants at this point.
Real 'fast battleships' are becoming the norm (several years faster than even the pre-WNT designs would have suggested) and thus the only slightly faster battle cruiser is completely outmoded. A battle cruiser launched only 1 year ago in-sim is now looking at a ship that will, after only a 4 year lifespan, be able to out gun it and run away fast enough to make the chase unprofitable. Many of the 'fast armored cruisers' face similar problems from the final generation of real 'battle cruisers.'

If the Ottomans want speed, the only way to go is small... if they want firepower, the only way to go is slow and armored. Their tactical and strategic situations conspire to keep the from trying to do all those things at once. The Ottomans could build a NICE 8x14" battleship in the 22-23 knot speed band and a fast 5.5-6.1" scout cruiser on the same total tonnage as a 'fast battleship' with enough capabilities to justify building it in the first place.