Second Caliphate Speculative Design Studies

[Guinness]

"2nd Caliphate" is a working title...

All this talk of quads led me to play with this. Gun calibers are entirely speculative. Lay down date and engine tech may or may not be realistic. This is also an excuse to try to get myself comfortable with designing a ship with the metric system.

The layout is reminiscent of the French Normandie design. AQX, A and X are "superfiring", in that they are mounted firing over forward and aft secondary casemate batteries which are capable of full bow and stern fire. The middle set of secondaries is 4 twin mounts nestled in between the arcs of fire of the main battery.

I imagine that Q turret would actually be immediately aft of the bridge, with boilers and turbines in the gap between Q and X. I've considered thinning the armor in the way of the engine rooms, using the end belt to simulate that, but when I tried it, I lost a bunch of seakeeping and didn't save any weight. I guess because SS has the end belts at the ends of the ship (or something).

The upper belt is meant to cover the fore and aft secondary batteries, as well as the servicing rooms below the secondary turrets amidships. It's actual length I'd calculate after illustration, but I think that's a good swag.

Caliphate Test BB, 2nd Caliphate Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1910)

Displacement:
   28,800 t light; 30,452 t standard; 32,090 t normal; 33,400 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   606.95 ft / 603.67 ft x 100.59 ft x 29.59 ft (normal load)
   185.00 m / 184.00 m x 30.66 m  x 9.02 m

Armament:
      12 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,199.24lbs / 543.97kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16,070 lbs / 7,289 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 111

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.15" / 80 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.36" / 60 mm   326.44 ft / 99.50 m   34.19 ft / 10.42 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   7.09" / 180 mm      13.4" / 340 mm
   2nd:   3.15" / 80 mm         -         1.57" / 40 mm
   3rd:   3.15" / 80 mm   2.36" / 60 mm      1.57" / 40 mm
   4th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   0.51" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 53,000 shp / 39,538 Kw = 23.10 kts
   Range 6,023nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,948 tons

Complement:
   1,198 - 1,558

Cost:
   £7.095 million / $28.382 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,009 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 12,009 tons, 37.4 %
      - Belts: 4,672 tons, 14.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 975 tons, 3.0 %
      - Armament: 2,725 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,311 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 325 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,190 tons, 6.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,157 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,290 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 435 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,874 lbs / 18,540 Kg = 34.1 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.625
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.90 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Mid (38 %):      23.62 ft / 7.20 m (15.75 ft / 4.80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Stern:      15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.71 ft / 5.70 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,458 Square feet or 4,223 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 975 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Warning: Armour belts too tall for hull

Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
75 t Flag Facilities
60t: Reserve

[TexanCowboy]

I doubt the Caliphate will have been united long enough to have layed down a battleship by 1920, unless it's a "Hero" project.  ;D. Will you have a quadruple tech? You need BC and AC's first, your heavy cruiser force is terribly out of date besides the 4 Ottoman ships, 2 of which were built in 1894.

[miketr]

I never took a real hard look at the Mughal's tech but I am very sure of the Ottomans.

1) Problem with an 340 weapon is its going to have to be new built, I had them start on a 12"L45 when I punted them to you but that won't be done till 1918H2.  Before that their best weapon is an 11"L45 and that can only upgrade to an L35 weapon in the 13" to 14" size class.  So you are going to need to wait till the 12"L45 gun finishes and build off of that.  Or buy foreign of course.  Also the Ottomans don't have an 140mm, does either of the other nations going into the restored Caliphate have such a gun?

2) The Ottomans have 1912 engine year so no need for the 1910.

3) I agree that the new state will need a new battleship but this thing is very expensive in terms of BP and you are going to have a massive coast line thats broken up into seperate areas many of which can only support each other with difficulty or not at all.

A) Med - Black Sea
B) Red Sea - Persian Gulf and Western Indian Ocean
C) Paratehys Sea

While I put a lot of effort into building cruisers and TB's the coast line required to be covered doubled or more in length.  My plan as the Ottomans wasn't to make any real attempt to hold the Red Sea - Persian Gulf - Western Indian Ocean.  I don't think the new Caliphate will have a choice but to try to do something there or put huge resources into a unhistoric railroad to link Delhi and Instanbul.  That new sea area will need something.  I think you are going to have to build even more small cruisers and TB's.  A new class of armored / battle cruisers armed with a 12" weapon might have some potential to bridge the gap till you can get a real gun from someone or R&D your own.

Michael

[TexanCowboy]

I made a list of this a week or so ago, so here goes:

14 pre-dreadnoughts, 2 Ottoman, 1 Mughal, 2 Persian, 9 Frianji(Two lake BB's, 1 Rounf BB)
6 dreadnoughts, 4 Ottoman, 2 Frianji
6 battlecruisers, all Ottoman, 4 Frianji
2 armoured cruisers, all Ottoman
1 7,450 ton cruiser, exact detail unknown, Mughal
27 protected cruisers, 21 Ottoman, 3 Mughal,3 Persian, 2 of which exact detail are unknown
102 destroyers/ torpedo boats, 34 Ottoman, 11 Persian, 49 Frianji, 8 Mughal, exact detail unknown
51 minewarfare boats, 10 Ottoman, 12 Persian, 29 Frianji
5 multi-purpose corvettes, all Persian
7 moniters, 3 large, 4 small, all Ottoman
43 gunboats, 20 Ottoman, 5 Khazarian,18 Frianji
6 tugboats, all Ottoman
2 transports, all Ottoman
1 tankship, Frianji
1 torpedo moniter, Frianji


You have a fairly large fleet, but much of it is obsolete, ecspecially the light cruisers, all the Mughal ships, and the misc. ships besides the Persian one. Two of the pre-dreadnoughts were layed down in 1916. If you add Oman you get 2 more protected cruisers, 4 torpedo boats, and 1 mine boat, all of which are obsolete besides the mine boat.

As you can see, Persia can most likely hold it's own againist any force short of a BC or BB, with two modern pre-dreadnoughts. The Ottomans have a bunch of battleships, 6, while the Mughals have 1.
You have 11 ships needing simming that I propose you start first. I don't think you have a type 3 drydock, either. Since you are taking over Frianji, as well, according to hooper82, you have a 13'' gun that should work, so I modified the ship totals to match.

[miketr]

Frianji also?!?  When did this get decided?

Michael

[TexanCowboy]

I do not know. hooper82 told me he was going to run Franji until 1917 H2, at which point Guinness would take over.

[Guinness]

speculative
adj.
1. Of, characterized by, or based upon contemplative speculation. See Synonyms at theoretical.
2.
   a. Given to conjecture or speculation.
   b. Marked by inquisitive interest: raised a speculative eyebrow.
3.
   a. Engaging in, given to, or involving financial speculation: speculative brokers; speculative stocks.
   b. Spent in speculation: speculative funds.
   c. Involving chance; risky: speculative business enterprises.

Or in other words, unlikely to be built. This is really just me messing with 3x4 quad configurations. Nonetheless, I'm not messing with a 12x12"L45 design too.

I've not yet begun to seriously assess the strategic situation of the beast I'm working on building. Mainly I've been concentrating on getting the kinks out of the storyline. :)

Frianji also?!?  When did this get decided?

Wouldn't say it's been decided, but the idea that Firanj may be a strategic goal of a figuratively pan-Islamic state certainly shouldn't be a surprise.

I do not know. hooper82 told me he was going to run Franji until 1917 H2, at which point Guinness would take over.

Loose lips sink ships, as they say. Speculation or innuendo based on third party knowledge is just as dangerous.

Possibly to put too fine a point on it: if there needs to be more discussion about the whole idea of the new Islamic state, please go back to the meeting room thread on the subject and post it there. But I think it deserves saying: the Mods deserve to have a little fun here and there too, no?

[Guinness]

Seeing what can be done with 12" guns (actually 300mm, but close enough). A BC with similar layout. Some of the secondary mounts are nestled forward and alongside A's raised barbette and aft and alongside X's raised barbette.

"main" belt in the way of magazines and FC space, "end" belt is thinner along machinery spaces. All the machinery is clustered between Q and X.

And as I said previously: this is just a speculative excuse to experiment with "alternative" layouts. I'm trying to break out of the decidedly more conventional Confederate looks.

Caliphate Test BC, 2nd Caliphate Battlecruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   27,900 t light; 29,251 t standard; 30,938 t normal; 32,287 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   666.00 ft / 662.73 ft x 96.13 ft x 30.19 ft (normal load)
   203.00 m / 202.00 m x 29.30 m  x 9.20 m

Armament:
      12 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (3x4 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side ends, evenly spread
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,565 lbs / 5,246 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 111

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   7.87" / 200 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
     219.82 ft / 67.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 53 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.76" / 70 mm   442.91 ft / 135.00 m   38.06 ft / 11.60 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   3.15" / 80 mm   2.36" / 60 mm      1.57" / 40 mm
   4th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   0.51" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89,058 shp / 66,437 Kw = 27.03 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,036 tons

Complement:
   1,166 - 1,516

Cost:
   £6.353 million / $25.413 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,446 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 10,136 tons, 32.8 %
      - Belts: 3,152 tons, 10.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,719 tons, 5.6 %
      - Armament: 2,678 tons, 8.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,295 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 293 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,551 tons, 11.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,333 tons, 39.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,038 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 435 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     43,554 lbs / 19,756 Kg = 52.9 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 7.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.563
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.89 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.10 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Mid (68 %):      26.25 ft / 8.00 m (18.37 ft / 5.60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Stern:      18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.69 ft / 7.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,006 Square feet or 4,181 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 922 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
75 t Flag Facilities
60t: Reserve

[TexanCowboy]

That can be done. However, and I know what speculative means, wouldn't it be better to use your 10-17 BP to improve your ports, and build a few Rattlesnake like ships?

[The Rock Doctor]

The belt needs some length...

[Guinness]

Worry not, there's going to be lots of TBs and DDs, and maybe a few light cruisers and a coast defense ship or three.

And troopships. Lots, and lots of troopships...

But it's also important to cultivate naval architecture talent. If that means letting the nascent architects have a whack at some radical capital ships which have little chance of being built, so be it.

The belt needs some length...

Right. Think N3, but with the after turret behind the machinery. The "main" belt is long enough to cover magazines plus a little extra. The "end" belt (which isn't really going on the ends) covers machinery.

[The Rock Doctor]

Right, right.  Forgot...

[Valles]

Issues of cost or feasibility aside, that there is a Grade-A battleship.

[TexanCowboy]

Battlecruiser, Valles, Battlecruiser. Underarmed and armoured for a battleship.

[Guinness]

Better version. More conventional. Y superfires X, but is well forward of the midbreak.

Caliphate Test BC, 2nd Caliphate Battlecruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   25,300 t light; 26,596 t standard; 28,189 t normal; 29,464 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   659.45 ft / 656.17 ft x 92.68 ft x 28.97 ft (normal load)
   201.00 m / 200.00 m x 28.25 m  x 8.83 m

Armament:
      12 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (3x4 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      20 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side ends, evenly spread
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,565 lbs / 5,246 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 111

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   431.76 ft / 131.60 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   431.76 ft / 131.60 m   37.73 ft / 11.50 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   3.15" / 80 mm   2.36" / 60 mm      1.57" / 40 mm
   4th:         -      0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   0.51" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 84,000 shp / 62,664 Kw = 27.02 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,868 tons

Complement:
   1,087 - 1,414

Cost:
   £6.071 million / $24.286 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,446 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 9,324 tons, 33.1 %
      - Belts: 3,458 tons, 12.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,186 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armament: 2,065 tons, 7.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,340 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 275 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,349 tons, 11.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,746 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,889 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 435 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36,505 lbs / 16,558 Kg = 44.3 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.80 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.95 ft / 7.30 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   23.95 ft / 7.30 m
      - Mid (69 %):      23.95 ft / 7.30 m (16.08 ft / 4.90 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Stern:      16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.51 ft / 6.56 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 166.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,843 Square feet or 3,980 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 855 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
75 t Flag Facilities
60t: Reserve