Second Caliphate Speculative Design Studies

[Guinness]

One more crack at this. This thing came about as a mental comparison on my part between the ships posted above, and another 8x21cm 31 knot 10k ton cruiser. I wanted to see what I could get to supplement the Ottoman "battleline" with another 25 knot ship. Originally this was to use the same thinner armor over machinery spaces concept, but then I found that if I ommitted aircraft I could fully armor what is essentially the minimally sized hull for stability purposes that will fit in a Type 2 drydock.

So this isn't a bad ship for the tonnage. The question I'm trying to answer is if it's worth two of those cruisers (or somewhere around 30 500t subs, or 60+ 250t TBs, etc.).

Semi-Fast BB (Nelrod Arrangement), Ottoman Empire Battleship laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   19,500 t light; 20,406 t standard; 22,179 t normal; 23,598 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 554.46 ft x 85.96 ft x 26.06 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 169.00 m x 26.20 m  x 7.94 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 893.97lbs / 405.50kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1900 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1900 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,155 lbs / 3,699 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   321.52 ft / 98.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   4.72" / 120 mm   232.91 ft / 70.99 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   321.52 ft / 98.00 m   29.86 ft / 9.10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   3.15" / 80 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   3.15" / 80 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   3.15" / 80 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      1.97" / 50 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 59,000 shp / 44,014 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,192 tons

Complement:
   908 - 1,181

Cost:
   £4.980 million / $19.920 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 995 tons, 4.5 %
   Armour: 7,665 tons, 34.6 %
      - Belts: 3,016 tons, 13.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 559 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 2,070 tons, 9.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,819 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 201 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,198 tons, 9.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,242 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,680 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,831 lbs / 15,346 Kg = 39.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.625
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.20 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.92 ft / 7.90 m
      - Forecastle (16 %):   23.29 ft / 7.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.67 ft / 6.30 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m before break)
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.90 ft / 6.67 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,679 Square feet or 3,315 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 789 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.85
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:
250t: Fire Control
50t: Flag Facilities
100t: Reserve

[Carthaginian]

Slower and more lightly armed than a battlecruiser.
Larger and more expensive than two ships that can get away from a battlecruiser.

Rule #1 - Never intentionally build an inferior ship.

She's a great design and a very good ship in her own field, but our technological situation has gone beyond her capabilities. In the OTL 1920's, she'd have been a beauty, though.

[Guinness]

I think it's better armored than most battlecruisers. It's better armored than the CSA's only battlecruisers at least.  ;) I wasn't trying to armor it better than it's own guns. It's certainly better protected than the two ships the Ottomans have now.

The question is: is it armored sufficiently against ships it expects to face:

From Iberia:

- The Astilleros del Nervion class BBs: 10x350mm, 343mm belt, 76mm deck, 22.6 knots.
- Portugal class BBs: 10x330mm, 330mm belt, 64mm deck, 22.6 knots.
- Cabral class ACs: 6x305mm, 165mm belt, 50mm deck, 31.5 knots
- Magallanes class ACs: 8x305mm, 305mm belt, 51mm deck, 26.91 knots

From the Habsburgs:

- Sandor class BBs: 16(!)x330mm, 356mm belt, 89mm deck, 26 knots
- Juan de Austria class BBs: 8x343mm, 330mm belt, 51 or 58mm deck, 22 knots
- Silegia: 14x305mm, 305mm belt, 51mm deck, 23 knots

Borys' Sandors clearly outclass this ship, but they're also ~37.5k tons too. I believe this ship could either hold it's own in a stand up fight against any of the other ships listed, or would have enough of a speed advantage to make its escape.

This does bring to mind the greatest drawback fo the all-forward arrangement: it wouldn't have much defense while on the run.

[Carthaginian]

Well, considering what she is facing, I'd say 'No.'
There are four ship classes up there that could easily crush this one's armor at any point on it's hull, and even though your ship has a 2-2.5 knot speed advantage it might not keep this advantage long. Add to this that this ship would have to, in order to damage any ship other than the Cabral, get inside it's immune zone to even fire on an enemy vessel... well, a smaller, faster, cheaper ship might be a better idea.

[Guinness]

There are four ship classes up there that could easily crush this one's armor at any point on it's hull

The problem is: that's not true. Mike's 34.3cm gun probably can't penetrate this ship's deck inside 19,500 or so yards (extrapolating here from the RN's 13.5" and 14" WW-1 era guns). The belt should be good outside that figure. So there is no zone of immunity, but it's simply not a case of being completely vulnerable. Performance against the 33cm gun and the 30.5cm gun should be better. The 35cm gun of the Atilleros would be a tougher problem.

What I'm really up to here is I'm trying (really really trying I say!) to talk myself into building something bigger than 10k tons. Sure I could build a 35k ton BB if I really wanted to. Having recently secured a license for a 16" gun, that's possible for the Ottomans with their existing tech and infrastructure. Unfortunately, they'd only be able to build one, it would take 7.5 or 8 years, and cost something like 4.8 BP a half. The Ottomans will have 8 BP in 1920. This ship can be built in 2.5 years for less than 4 BP a half.

Such a monster "treaty" BB would also render what the Ottomans already have even more obsolete. I just can't see a 16" armed ship operating in a single formation with 2 11" armed ships, even if they all make the same speed. I also suspect it will effectively be obsolete by the time it hits the water.

The alternative, as noted, is an all Sub and TB fleet, with a coast defense ship or two and maybe a pair of 21cm armed cruisers thrown in mostly to make life more interesting for Iberian naval strategists. It just feels like building a fleet like that will lead to further isolation for the Ottomans and their successors.

[Guinness]

If I return to the heavy armor over magazines, etc. and light armor over machinery idea, I get up to 330mm armor over the magazines:

Magazine Armor: 53m x 320mm = 1928 tons
Machinery Armor: 45m x 120m = 743 tons

or with a little more tinkering:

Magazine Armor: 53m x 310mm = 1891
Machinery Armor: 45m x 150m = 815

So we see here that the idea of less belt armor over the machinery really only pays off with a ship with lots of machinery, ie a faster ship. It's an idea though.

[Jefgte]

Personnaly, I made comparison with similar ships.
19500t vs 17500 or 21500t max

Of course, the comparison is not good vs 25000t &... 30000t.
(I didnt compare Seydlitz vs Hood)



The 19500t is not bad for a 170m ship
I just increase the speed to the max for 170m lenght - (probably 27kts).


Jef

[mentat]

If the Caliphate is realistically limited to 20 k ton ships - i'd have thought the biggest statement to be made would be a good fast heavy cruiser - not too different to a Wheeler - but considerably less range + more firepower and prot'n - do you have shipyard facilities to handle this yet?

[Guinness]

The Ottomans have a single type 3 drydock, so a ship longer than 170m could be built, but they'd prefer not to as the infrastructure really doesn't exist to support such a ship.

[mentat]

  if you have 1 dry dock - i'm guessing you could support 2/3 large ships from it in the future???

seems a shame to restrict larger ships to moderate speed only - isn't something in the Heavy Fast Scout/Raider category going to be useful ... - as well as eye-catching  ;D

[Guinness]

  if you have 1 dry dock - i'm guessing you could support 2/3 large ships from it in the future???

Only if I don't want to build anything there. It's my only Type 3 facility right now.

seems a shame to restrict larger ships to moderate speed only - isn't something in the Heavy Fast Scout/Raider category going to be useful ... - as well as eye-catching  ;D

Quite possibly, but anything bigger than a torpedo boat or submarine seems like a luxury to the Ottomans right now. Something ~10-15k tons armed with 21cm guns and capable of up to 32 knots is surely possible, given type 3 dds. Designing for 170m is a different challenge, but still doable. For instance:

Cruiser Concept (Conventional) 4x2, Ottoman Empire Cruiser laid down 1922 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   10,000 t light; 10,372 t standard; 11,267 t normal; 11,984 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.75 ft / 549.54 ft x 62.34 ft x 22.57 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 167.50 m x 19.00 m  x 6.88 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 238.10lbs / 108.00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1922 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 1,935 lbs / 878 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 135
   4 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.54" / 90 mm   403.54 ft / 123.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   145.96 ft / 44.49 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   2.76" / 70 mm      3.94" / 100 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 30.60 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,612 tons

Complement:
   546 - 710

Cost:
   £2.749 million / $10.994 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 286 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 2,235 tons, 19.8 %
      - Belts: 1,072 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 453 tons, 4.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 671 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 38 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,981 tons, 26.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,175 tons, 37.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,267 tons, 11.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 323 tons, 2.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,197 lbs / 5,079 Kg = 39.6 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.05 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.57 ft / 8.10 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   24.28 ft / 7.40 m
      - Mid (61 %):      23.62 ft / 7.20 m (15.75 ft / 4.80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Stern:      16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.96 ft / 6.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,034 Square feet or 2,140 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 538 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight:
250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Wireless
8t: 4 21" Torpedoes
41t: Reserve

[mentat]

  that looks nice - nicely balanced design and not too expensive :)

a pair of those would work well together for Scouting/Raiding - or singly could still provide good support to light forces  ...

[Guinness]

The Ottoman staff has identified a requirement for a dedicated offensive minelayer. This design is for use in comparison to converting existing ships.

Ottoman Minelayer (1500t), Ottoman Empire Minelayer laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,550 t standard; 1,868 t normal; 2,123 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   359.25 ft / 354.33 ft x 35.43 ft x 11.57 ft (normal load)
   109.50 m / 108.00 m x 10.80 m  x 3.53 m

Armament:
      3 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 38.36lbs / 17.40kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 115 lbs / 52 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33,000 shp / 24,618 Kw = 31.16 kts
   Range 5,280nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 573 tons

Complement:
   141 - 184

Cost:
   £0.473 million / $1.890 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 13 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 7 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 7 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 973 tons, 52.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 365 tons, 19.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 369 tons, 19.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 141 tons, 7.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     416 lbs / 189 Kg = 11.8 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.50
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.73

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.82 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.95 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.70 ft / 5.70 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Mid (35 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m (8.53 ft / 2.60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (8 %):   8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Stern:      8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,008 Square feet or 744 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 69 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.69
      - Overall: 0.51
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 0.9

Misc Weight:
120t: 120 mines
21t: Reserve

[Jefgte]

Economical ship for minelayer job.

Good choice.


Jef  ;)