Second Caliphate Speculative Design Studies

[Valles]

Hm? *rereads thread* Ah. Dangit, I'd been talking about the design in the first post. ^_^

[Tanthalas]

Battlecruiser, Valles, Battlecruiser. Underarmed and armoured for a battleship.

Lies, its a dandy BB imho 12" armor, 12" guns and the rain of soft kill goodness, plenty good for a BB

[Borys]

but to try to do something there or put huge resources into a unhistoric railroad to link Delhi and Instanbul. 

Actually, the gap between the Persian and Indian rail systems is not large (in Asian terms).
In OTL there is a gauge break - Iran uses the Stevenson Gauge, while India uses 5'6". This, plus the wrecking of Indian by Ghandi, probably torpedoed any ideas for linking the two.

OTL Ottomans had a mix of SG and 1050mm - the metric equivalent to 3'6".

Boratistan is anybody's guess - may be 5' or SG or whatever.
Borys

[Logi]

I'm going to eliminate the "Asian terms" when referring to the RRC's railroads soon ;)

I think its a fine BB; fast, decently armed and armored, good secondary battery. I'm not enlightened by what might be the BP output of a united Islamic-empire?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The figure of 12-14BP was mentioned.
But still the Mussulmans need two separate navies, a situation not unlike Russia's.
Or smash France ...
Borys

[Guinness]

All this is prefaced with this statement: I've not yet done much number crunching beyond general terms. That's going to happen after I start diving into some reports, which will come after some storyline stuff gets posted, which will come after the motherload of new rules updates gets rolled out (more on that coming soon). But I expect the new state will start out with something like 11 or 12 BP on Revenue of $180 or so.

On the naval front, it'll really need as many as 4 distinct fleets:

1) Paratethys Sea
2) Black Sea
3) Med
4) Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf/Red Sea

3 of the 4 can be linked by sea route, but since France controls Suez, I think it'll be wise to expect Suez to be closed when needed. In theory the Med and Black Sea forces could be the same, since the link between those won't be foreign controlled, but it seems wise to expect that any enemy in the Med would move force to close the Bosporus outlet. The Paratethys Sea force can be expected to be small, as I'm pretty sure no one really wants a building race there (but that could be interesting).

The Indian Ocean force I expect could be a true blue-water navy. For all the others some combination of torpedo craft, submarines, and various minelayers seems most cost effective. Expect some serious coast defense works too.

So there is likely a place for capital ships, but probably not more than 4 for any reasonable time horizon. Since that number is insufficient to face off in a line-ahead battle with any big fish, it also seems reasonable that those ships should continue to be jacks of all trades capable of tying up the enemy's forces disproportionately. So the sort of small fast battleship posted as the second design seems promising.

To defend the long Indian Ocean sea lanes from interdiction and escort convoys, etc. some smaller coast defense ship seems like a good idea. It would have to be small though, not more than about 8000 tons, maybe 21 knots.

Oh, and Ottomans-Persia-Mughals together have 53 corps. Not all them are modern. There's a lot of unfriendly border to cover though.

[miketr]

I don't know what the Mughals or Persians have for dockyards but I know the Ottoman fleet wasn't intended to operate outside of the Black Sea - Med area.  For that matter most if not all of the big dry docks are around Istanbul and other ports of Western Anatolia.  If you want a Indian Ocean stance you might have a lot of infrastructure building to do.

Michael

[Guinness]

Yup

[Guinness]

Idea for a possible CBB. Again this uses a quad just because I'm playing with them, and ships guns that probably aren't available.

Coastal BB Study, 2nd Caliphate Coastal BB laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   7,600 t light; 7,917 t standard; 8,575 t normal; 9,102 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387.14 ft / 387.14 ft x 63.98 ft x 18.93 ft (normal load)
   118.00 m / 118.00 m x 19.50 m  x 5.77 m

Armament:
      4 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (1x4 guns), 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (2x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,324 lbs / 1,054 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 106

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.2" / 260 mm   187.01 ft / 57.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   3.15" / 80 mm   200.10 ft / 60.99 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   157.48 ft / 48.00 m   3.94 ft / 1.20 m
     Main Belt covers 74 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   5.51" / 140 mm      10.2" / 260 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   3.15" / 80 mm      3.94" / 100 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,200 shp / 14,323 Kw = 21.03 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,185 tons

Complement:
   445 - 579

Cost:
   £1.459 million / $5.836 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 291 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 3,263 tons, 38.1 %
      - Belts: 1,927 tons, 22.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 415 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 822 tons, 9.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 99 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 766 tons, 8.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,881 tons, 33.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 975 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 4.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,358 lbs / 6,966 Kg = 36.4 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.640
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.05 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.03 ft / 5.80 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   19.03 ft / 5.80 m
      - Mid (71 %):      19.03 ft / 5.80 m (11.15 ft / 3.40 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   11.15 ft / 3.40 m
      - Stern:      11.15 ft / 3.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.75 ft / 5.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,800 Square feet or 1,747 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 524 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

Why not putting the main gun turret amidships, superfiring over secundary turrets,  Armor the whole turret as if it's a conning tower, and make the conning tower a part of the main gun turret.

A kind of larger, Faa di Bruno

[The Rock Doctor]

You'd be better off to just use the old pre-dreads and semi-dreads for that function.

Unless, of course, you build the CBB as a test-bed for a new system, like I did with Sucre

[Guinness]

Maddox: that's an idea I messed with too. For this ship though, I wanted decent steadiness and seakeeping too, so this is the solution I arrived at.

Rocky: hmmm.... maybe a quad 300mm monitor thing. I'll have to play with that.

EDIT: Maybe something like this. 9000t seems like a lot though...

Monitor Study, 2nd Caliphate Coastal BB laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   9,000 t light; 9,438 t standard; 9,950 t normal; 10,359 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 78.74 ft x 16.40 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 24.00 m  x 5.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (1x4 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward, all raised guns
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3,932 lbs / 1,784 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 106

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.2" / 260 mm   152.56 ft / 46.50 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   3.15" / 80 mm   241.14 ft / 73.50 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
     Main Belt covers 60 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   5.51" / 140 mm      10.2" / 260 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   3.15" / 80 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   3.15" / 80 mm      3.94" / 100 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,200 shp / 9,101 Kw = 18.03 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 921 tons

Complement:
   497 - 647

Cost:
   £1.881 million / $7.526 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 492 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 3,223 tons, 32.4 %
      - Belts: 1,538 tons, 15.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 683 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 893 tons, 9.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 486 tons, 4.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,498 tons, 45.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 950 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,497 lbs / 8,844 Kg = 23.7 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.685
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Stern:      15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,511 Square feet or 2,277 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 712 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.02
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[TexanCowboy]

Use the 2 modern Persian ships built for the function.

[Guinness]

The Ottomans are building a type 3 DD at Istanbul...

Now what to do with it? One idea is this. The twin 150mm mount would have to be developed first, of course, which might push the lay down date back a year. X and Y would be mounted back to back.

Ottoman BC, Ottoman Empire Armored Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   23,000 t light; 24,050 t standard; 25,284 t normal; 26,271 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   616.88 ft / 610.24 ft x 87.11 ft x 27.75 ft (normal load)
   188.02 m / 186.00 m x 26.55 m  x 8.46 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (6x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,166 lbs / 3,704 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 117

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.2" / 260 mm   372.90 ft / 113.66 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   2.76" / 70 mm   237.34 ft / 72.34 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   4.72" / 120 mm   367.45 ft / 112.00 m   22.15 ft / 6.75 m
     Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   372.90 ft / 113.66 m   34.12 ft / 10.40 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      10.2" / 260 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.57" / 40 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 82,000 shp / 61,172 Kw = 27.01 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,222 tons

Complement:
   1,002 - 1,303

Cost:
   £4.560 million / $18.241 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,021 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 9,442 tons, 37.3 %
      - Belts: 4,839 tons, 19.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 741 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 1,816 tons, 7.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,841 tons, 7.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 205 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,055 tons, 12.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,032 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,284 tons, 9.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37,263 lbs / 16,902 Kg = 43.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.55 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.56 ft / 8.40 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Mid (52 %):      25.26 ft / 7.70 m (20.67 ft / 6.30 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (17 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.62 ft / 7.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 38,877 Square feet or 3,612 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 769 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[miketr]

The Ottoman's have two "fairly" modern AC's but they haven't built any new Battleships in some time.  Also you should look closely at the Iberian AC's.  In particular Magallanes and Da Gama.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=673.msg26050#msg26050