Why Build Anything else ??

[mentat]

At the risk of being controversial (well why not :D) - i want to explore the idea of building a Navy's promary offensive capability around some very Nasty Cruisers: what I have in mind is something like these ( I have simmed but cannot upload - so will summarise below):

The idea is 'Cruisers' or Main Combat Vessels with reasonable speed, range and protection (vs. Cruiser guns - up to c.7.5") - but Big emphasis on Firepower - given what can be packed in I think it is interesting idea - and invite feedback.

Project 'Gunsmoke' - Gunship Cruisers:
 

  Gunsmoke I - 8986 tons Light

555' x 62' x 22.5'   BC 0.47 L:B 8.95:!

8 x 10" (4x2)
12 x 5.1" (6 x2)
4 x 65mm AA
24 x 25mm MGs
- Broadside 4886lb

8 x 20' TT

Armour Belt 4.5" Turrets 5" 2" 4" Barb. deck 1.8" CT 5"

52k shp - 28 knots 9 k nm @12 knots

Average Frbd 16'

Surv 9975lb 20 x 10" 1.5 Torps
Stability 1.1
Steadiness 55%
Seaboat 1.06
Recoil - 0.89

Cost GBP 2.17m


- a more robust version is also possible - bit bigger 10976 tons standard

  Same armament etc - but better protection: Belt 7" Turrets face 8" Barb 7" Deck 2.4" CT 8"


Perhaps more interesting is:

Big Gunsmoke:

15082 tons Light

595 x 78.5 x 22.5  BC 0.58  L:B 7.58:1

8 x 13" (1100lb) 4x2
12 x 5.1" (6x2)
4 x 65mm AA
24 x 25mm MGs

- Broadside 9686lb

8 x 20" TT

Armour:
Belt 5"
Turrets 6" 2" 5" Barb.
Deck 1.75" CT 6"

74.5 k shp - 28 knots 9k nm @ 12 knots

Cost GBP 3.832m

Surv 16,556 15 x 13" 1.9 Torps

Avge Frbd 19.5'

Stab 1.08
Steadiness 57%
Seaboat 1.00

Recoil 0.95 !!


They clearly pack a punch - and are not so big/expensive - that you can't afford quite a few/ or quite a lot depending on your budget.

Given a strategy of using these 'Main Combat Vessels' vs Cruisers - completely avoiding stand-up fights with Capital Ships (i.e. not contesting area currently occupied by BBs/ BCs - use other weapons vs. them)  - I'm interested to get people's views  on the idea

Esp. where it might work - and what would be needed to make it work.

[Sachmle]

It's definitely in interesting idea, and some have had something similar in the past (Swiss "Super Cruisers") but the problem I see is that there are some ACs w/ similar characteristics now such as the "Furies" of Orange with there 9.2" guns and 29kt speed. I think they have 7" belts but I can't remember. I have 3 smallish battlecruisers that pack 11" guns, 8" belts, and 28kts already on 15K. Then there are the Dutch monsters, De Ruyter and Co that pack 15" guns, 12" belts, and 30kts. They would eat these Super ACs for lunch. As you say, you would intend to not use these in areas were such ships operate, but if you can only operate where the enemy doesn't deem heavy ships necessary you'll always be operating in the periphery theater and not affecting the outcome of the war. They'd be overkill for raiders and underwhelming in fleet operations. Perhaps the 13" armed one could be useful as a heavy scout for the fleet, or in hit-&-run attacks on enemy ports but the recoil on it, and really both, is way to high. Any flooding and you won't be able to fire on the beam without rolling over and turning turtle.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Not much of use if they run into a battleline. And even 2nd rate powers have 3-6 battleships.
Borys

[Logi]

*cough* *cough*

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Fact is, I'm building something roughly similar to the smaller vessel. And I'll be building 5x2x9" cruisers just as well :)

Borys

[maddox]

With 28kts, you can't avoid the fast BB's that are being build now.

And even if the combined mass of the cruisers is simular to the BB, they have a big problem taking it on.
The BB 's armor can deal with the much smaller guns of the heavy cruisers, and except a golden twinky, the BB can soak up a lot of damage.

The cruisers themselfs ain't armored against their own guns, let be against BB guns. So every hit will be damaging, if not outright crippling.

Best bet, according to me,  is a combination of "bruiser cruisers" and a swarm of DD's that will dart in for torpedo attacks.

The answer of course, is a good screen against such attacks.

[Desertfox]

Armor is overrated, a warship's main role is to sink the oponent. Everything else is secondary... Basiclly your idea for a navy is exaclly what NS has been based upon.

[maddox]

Fishers Foly.  Speed=armor has been proven to be false.

On the other hand, a floating bunker ain't much to fight with, even if there is nothing that can damage it.

[TexanCowboy]

Ahoj!
Not much of use if they run into a battleline. And even 2nd rate powers have 3-6 battleships.
Borys

Hehehehe. I have 2 and I'm a 3rd rate power.

[ctwaterman]

Its all about a Balanced Fleet.....  or as Balanced as the Philosphy of the Navy in question wishes to make it.

A Modern Fleet of say 4 Battle Ships, 8 Cruisers, and 16 Destroyers is a serious threat to a group of say 16 Cruisers  -  The Battle Ships Secondary Guns threaten your Cruisers let alone the Heavy Caliber Weapons, the Only weapon you have that can sink the Battle Ships is A Torpedo and the Enemy has Torpedo's as well to use your Torpedoes you have to close into a minimum effective range of say 4000 Meters/Yards.   And to do so you have to risk every caliber of gun the enemy has from 15" down to 3" and the Enemy has torpedoes as well.

Now Romania does have a unique Fleet Requirement do you only intend this force to be a Black Sea Force or do you wish it to be able to go out into the wide world and fight.

As and Example  Besides the DKB, and Swiss Ships - Italia has 2 Super AC with 8 x 10" Gun and 5 remaining older Cruisers also with 10" Guns Large Heavy Cruisers are not a new Idea as stated above the Swiss love them and the Dutch have gone to Super Battle Cruisers but both have budgets you cant hope to match.

Charles

[Kaiser Kirk]

Esp. where it might work - and what would be needed to make it work.

Well Bavaria's a 4th or 5th rate power.  The entire navy weighs less than some battleships.

There is only 70km of coast, and it's not strategically vital. No merchant marine to speak of, no overseas possessions.  So the majority of the navy can be a coastal force.

So I've eyed the idea of cruiser-raiders as something to do with my production.
However, with choke points at Oranto, Suez and Gibralter they will need support vessels. 

They will also need to be long ranged 8-12k +  in order to wander the oceans and spread out the defenders.

Since in this era most merchants are still coal fired, and so most ports will be they should be mixed firing for maximum flex. Coal for cruising, oil for sprints.

Speed needs to be high - which Bavaria's tech can't manage right now- as there are a number of fast ACs/small BCs and even some faster battleships. 

I actually think they need to have extensive light armor.  Far from repair facilities, they can be mission killed easily, or worse, slowed down, simply by destroyer and light cruiser rounds.   Light armor would render HE rounds ineffectual. While Common and AP would be viable, they have much smaller bursters.  Vitals should be protected from at least 6" fire, if not more.

Weaponry suit does not need to be great- main target is Merchants and Q ships. The next step up is to provide weaponry to rapidly kill opposing cruisers before they can seriously wound you. The latter would also help if the unit was to have a secondary role in a fleet screen.

However, this combination all makes for a rather large and expensive vessel, and you would need lots of them to make a big impact.  The alternative is Armed Merchant Cruisers or very light small cruisers in number.  Of course, if you crank out 50 raider-cruisers, your most likely target might oddly start producing slightly faster and heavier cruisers...

All of which has to be offset against the Alternate Rate of Return- i.e. if I didn't build these, could I get more value by adding those resources to the fleet?

[Tanthalas]

Plain and simple it isnt fast enough.  If you want it to raid it better be able to do more than 30 knots and have decent (if not spectacular) armor and weapons.  CSA has the Whealer Class, Rohan has the Eldecar class, and I know others have built over grown cruisers with basicly the same mission in mind.

[maddox]

This maybe

[Borys]

I actually think they need to have extensive light armor.  Far from repair facilities, they can be mission killed easily, or worse, slowed down, simply by destroyer and light cruiser rounds.   Light armor would render HE rounds ineffectual. While Common and AP would be viable, they have much smaller bursters.  Vitals should be protected from at least 6" fire, if not more.

This is the reason why Habsburger ships all have End and Upper Belts Belts.
Borys

[mentat]

Thanks - many interesting replies, and i thought i would receive torrent of abuse  :D

I can add some more thoughts on detail.

for larger operations - combine them in 3 ship squadrons - possibly have robust version as Flagship - should be effective vs. comparable ACs

Overall strategy - is not to contest with BB/BC:

   - they are deliberately just fast enough to avoid most undesirable situatins - really need 3 knot advantage to overhaul and enforce engagement - 31 knot BCs are VERY EXPENSIVE !!!

    - against BB/BC - rely on Subs, Mines n Sabotage - they are lovely big fat targets when in harbour - which is spot they occupy 80% of time !!

For limited defensive assets that need defending - an important Convoy/Main port - have maybe 2 Large CD BBs - they are also very cost effective

to improve defensive capability - and avoid Kaboom in heavier combat situations (esp vs 8 - 10 inch Gunfire)  - put mags under shell rooms, have heavier prot'n abreast Mags lighter for Machinery , add some splinter armour as well - and use cased ammo - as German practice

  i wasn't really thinking of them in Raider role -ideally need lots of Speed and Long Legs for that - but Gunsmoke 1 is ideal for Cruiser warfare generally - and OKish as Raider

  - am I making any more sense to the skeptics out there ??  ;D or not  :(