1920 - KKK tentative designs

[Borys]

Design 1
This is similar to the OTL Russian ideas for 16" battlerships for the Black Sea.

The MG turrets are spaced out, while the secondaries in enclosed twin mounts are below the main deck. Springshare evidently has a problem with 6xmount&hoist and 12 guns below the main deck :)s


Habsburgs Schlachtiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   29 183 t light; 30 816 t standard; 31 958 t normal; 32 872 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   700,00 ft / 700,00 ft x 100,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   213,36 m / 213,36 m x 30,48 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      12 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1 400,00lbs / 635,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 17 704 lbs / 8 031 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   270,00 ft / 82,30 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   43,00 ft / 13,11 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   5,00" / 127 mm         -         2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 65 710 shp / 49 019 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 056 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 194 - 1 553

Cost:
   £7,130 million / $28,519 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 957 tons, 6,1%
   Armour: 11 875 tons, 37,2%
      - Belts: 5 593 tons, 17,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 026 tons, 3,2%
      - Armament: 2 012 tons, 6,3%
      - Armour Deck: 2 940 tons, 9,2%
      - Conning Tower: 304 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 2 505 tons, 7,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12 396 tons, 38,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 775 tons, 8,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37 634 lbs / 17 070 Kg = 30,6 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 6,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,551
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Mid (25%):      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,48 ft / 5,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124,8%
   Waterplane Area: 48 898 Square feet or 4 543 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,09
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Borys]

Design 2
Some KKK weirdness here - the front turrets are back to back, while the aft ones are one behind the other. All are on deck level. 

Habsburger Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   32 076 t light; 33 950 t standard; 35 163 t normal; 36 134 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   700,00 ft / 700,00 ft x 107,00 ft x 29,50 ft (normal load)
   213,36 m / 213,36 m x 32,61 m  x 8,99 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 20 904 lbs / 9 482 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 99% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   450,00 ft / 137,16 m   43,00 ft / 13,11 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   6,00" / 152 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   5,00" / 127 mm         -         2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70 413 shp / 52 528 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 183 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   1 283 - 1 669

Cost:
   £8,224 million / $32,896 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 358 tons, 6,7%
   Armour: 12 862 tons, 36,6%
      - Belts: 5 784 tons, 16,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 074 tons, 3,1%
      - Armament: 2 517 tons, 7,2%
      - Armour Deck: 3 164 tons, 9,0%
      - Conning Tower: 324 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 684 tons, 7,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13 721 tons, 39,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 087 tons, 8,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39 393 lbs / 17 868 Kg = 17,5 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 6,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 6,6 ft / 2,0 m
   Roll period: 17,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Mid (25%):      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,48 ft / 5,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,0%
   Waterplane Area: 52 616 Square feet or 4 888 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 984 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[mentat]

I like the Big Bertha version with 420mm  ;D

But query on so much weight on Upper and End Belts - is there a particular reason?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The KKK is expecting to fight in ranges of 10-15 thousand yards.
Hence the desire to prevent all those non MG hits from causing mischief.

Also, I just hate the idea of a battleship running around with unarmoured bits ... 
Borys

[mentat]

i see - but can't help thinking at such ranges - really MB should be 14-15" to keep out the big stuff

what about 15" (13" + 2" vs Armour Cap) MB and 4" UB - vs Cruiser guns - isn't that more effective?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Good suggestions.

Maybe I should think about 14" MB.

I think that it is too early for de-capping.

The Torpedo Bulkhead reaches the Main Deck (or it should - I will fine tune the design later).

Borys

[TexanCowboy]

What's with the 5.3'' guns? Thats a odd caliber.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The calibre stems from my desire to have a seventyfive pounder.
The fourandahalf inch fifty pounder is for smaller vessels, while the larger weapon is for rapid fire against torpedo bearing vessels. A six incher firing 100 pound shells is IMO overkill and has too low a ROF.
Borys

[Borys]

Dibs on this drawing:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/2000_03/Draw/95.jpg

[The Rock Doctor]

I like the style of the turrets.  I find it's one of the hardest parts to draw when I tinker.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Found the page which inspired my latest battleship designs:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/irn16bb.htm


The 4x2x16,5" ship would look like the line drawing below, but with twins:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/images/irnultimate.jpg

The 4x4x16" design might catch France's fancy ...
Borys

[Borys]

So ...

SMS Viribus Unitis, Habsburger Schlachtschiff laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   38 137 t light; 40 294 t standard; 42 350 t normal; 43 995 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   760,00 ft / 760,00 ft x 109,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   231,65 m / 231,65 m x 33,22 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 16,50" / 42cm guns (4x2 guns), 2 500,00lbs / 1 133,98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 21 208 lbs / 9 620 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   300,00 ft / 91,44 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 93% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   47,00 ft / 14,33 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      13,5" / 343 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 17,00" / 432 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 105 681 shp / 78 838 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 700 tons

Complement:
   1 475 - 1 918

Cost:
   £9,215 million / $36,860 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 396 tons, 5,7%
   Armour: 15 612 tons, 36,9%
      - Belts: 6 967 tons, 16,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 600 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 3 185 tons, 7,5%
      - Armour Deck: 3 416 tons, 8,1%
      - Conning Tower: 445 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 3 937 tons, 9,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15 741 tons, 37,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 213 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51 846 lbs / 23 517 Kg = 23,1 x 16,5 " / 419 mm shells or 8,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 6,8 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 17,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,617
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,97 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,32 ft / 9,24 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,30 ft / 5,88 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,14 ft / 5,83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143,1%
   Waterplane Area: 61 555 Square feet or 5 719 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 197 lbs/sq ft or 961 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,00
      - Longitudinal: 1,00
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[The Rock Doctor]

Powerful and fast.  

The stem is twelve feet higher than the main deck, though - might hinder shooting ahead.

I'm a bit surprised to see you sticking with casemates - I thought you were going to the mount and hoist set up.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Yes, I was indeed originally thinking of an arrangment like this:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/images/irn16in1917.jpg

But:
a - the drawing has only three turrets :)
b - would I be able to fit three or four turrets per side having four MG turrets on the main deck?

I can do it, although my "gun platform" rating plumetts to "69" :)

Borys

[Tanthalas]

I think it would fit, You might have to get creative with the super Structure but I think it would fit.