new Orange ships and projects

[Nobody]

I designed a auxiliary cruiser/armed merchant yesterday. I wanted it to be similar to HSK Atlantis (Schiff 16) which carried four hidden guns on each side and two guns disguised as crates on deck.
In oder to keep it under the 2% limit I had to increase the size (first draft was only 4000 tons) and reduce the number of guns (no 3" small guns), not even splinter armor either.

Here it is, what do you think?
HSK 1920, Orange HSK laid down 1920

Displacement:
   5.200 t light; 5.509 t standard; 6.853 t normal; 7.929 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390,42 ft / 387,14 ft x 62,34 ft x 18,37 ft (normal load)
   119,00 m / 118,00 m x 19,00 m  x 5,60 m

Armament:
      2 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 1.088 lbs / 493 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   4 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes, 6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 1 shaft, 10.731 shp / 8.006 Kw = 19,00 kts
   Range 20.250nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.420 tons

Complement:
   376 - 489

Cost:
   £0,824 million / $3,297 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 136 tons, 2,0%
   Machinery: 375 tons, 5,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.809 tons, 55,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.653 tons, 24,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 880 tons, 12,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14.969 lbs / 6.790 Kg = 138,6 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 2,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,30
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 13,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,541
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,67 ft / 0,51 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m (17,06 ft / 5,20 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m (16,40 ft / 5,00 m before break)
      - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,79 ft / 5,42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120,1%
   Waterplane Area: 16.171 Square feet or 1.502 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 252%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 756 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,85
      - Longitudinal: 4,14
      - Overall: 2,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Sachmle]

If you want it to Merchant Standard, design the ship as needed, find the weight of the guns, replace said weight w/ Misc weight, remove the guns, build the ship as a merchant, wait til war, refit the ship w/ the guns instead of the misc weight( That's what Misc Weight is for anyway) and viola..AMC.

[Nobody]

Trying to find some use my next generation of major caliber guns. Since I decided to go from 16"/40 to 42 cm/45 before the Richmond treaty this proves to be difficult.

This is supposed to be UK style battlecruiser and although it's my least bad attempt so far, I'm not happy with it at all.

CB-1, Orange light battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
   38.350 t light; 40.584 t standard; 45.917 t normal; 50.184 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   853,02 ft / 853,02 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,99 ft (normal load)
   260,00 m / 260,00 m x 33,00 m  x 9,75 m

Armament:
      6 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.314,85lbs / 1.050,00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (2x3 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.498 lbs / 7.030 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   524,93 ft / 160,00 m   14,44 ft / 4,40 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   328,08 ft / 100,00 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   557,74 ft / 170,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   524,93 ft / 160,00 m   29,23 ft / 8,91 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      11,8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   4,72" / 120 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   4,72" / 120 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   4th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 160.000 shp / 119.360 Kw = 30,32 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 21,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9.600 tons

Complement:
   1.567 - 2.038

Cost:
   £10,078 million / $40,311 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.897 tons, 4,1%
   Armour: 12.512 tons, 27,2%
      - Belts: 4.561 tons, 9,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.118 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2.165 tons, 4,7%
      - Armour Deck: 4.668 tons, 10,2%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 5.427 tons, 11,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.014 tons, 37,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7.567 tons, 16,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 1.500 tons, 3,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     62.728 lbs / 28.453 Kg = 27,7 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 9,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
   Metacentric height 8,6 ft / 2,6 m
   Roll period: 15,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,544
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,12 ft / 9,79 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   20,44 ft / 6,23 m
      - Mid (50%):      20,44 ft / 6,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   20,44 ft / 6,23 m
      - Stern:      20,44 ft / 6,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,37 ft / 6,51 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,2%
   Waterplane Area: 64.092 Square feet or 5.954 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 944 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,02
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

• the ship is too big, although only 10% so it might go unnoticed
  
• despite its "maximum power-plant" it's too slow
  
• I don't like having only 2 main turrets
  
• I doubt to have 6" triples by then
  
• the seekeeping is below 1.2
  
• belt and deck armor are acceptable, but turret armor is not
  
• I forgot to armor the conning tower
  
  Any suggestion is welcome.
  

[Guinness]

I think 42cm is just too big, at least on a fast ship. Maybe on something like 23 knots.

Those 42cm guns ought to make great coast defense guns though.

[The Rock Doctor]

Two suggestions:  cut back on the fuel - which is really excessive for a continental power like Orange - and knock off the end and upper belts.

[Sachmle]

Two suggestions:  cut back on the fuel - which is really excessive for a continental power like Orange - and knock off the end and upper belts.

Range is excessive (7,000nm @ 21kts...W:oW!!), but I can understand the end/upper belts. I'd cut shells. If you're using 150 shells per gun (900 rounds) then you either need to work on your aim, it's to big for you to sink, or their are a lot of homeless people on some island/coastal city somewhere.

[Valles]

I am not a fan of the British school of battlecruiser design, from first principles on.

That said, I'll agree that this design simply suffers more for her main guns than they're worth, compromising on every front to carry even an inadequate number of them. There's a very good reason that the Maori are never going to go beyond 40cm for their main batteries, and were never intended to.

[Carthaginian]

Incomparable... 'nuff said.

Sure, it looks scary, but if you get in under them big guns, it's all over but the economic devastation.

[Sachmle]

Incomparable... 'nuff said.

Sure, it looks scary, but if you get in under them big guns, it's all over but the economic devastation.

LOL!! And it's the

CB-1, Orange light battlecruiser laid down 1922

Hate to see the "Heavy" one.

[TexanCowboy]

It's measured in light, so increase the size, add some belt armour, and knock off the upper belts. Cut the end belt down to 40 mm, if you want splinter protection, or kill it, if you want a true AoN.

[Nobody]

I think 42cm is just too big, at least on a fast ship. Maybe on something like 23 knots.

Those 42cm guns ought to make great coast defense guns though.

Yea but I was planning to use the same gun on Battleships and -cruisers. And I prefer a modern too heavy gun over an outdated too light one.

Two suggestions:  cut back on the fuel - which is really excessive for a continental power like Orange - and knock off the end and upper belts.

Range was defined by coast length, besides whats the distance between Durban and the Orange Islands (located on the other side of the Indian Ocean)?
The ship isn't big enough for an AoN-Armor. It will have a classical citadel layout, so anti-cruiser and waterline protection is essential, for everything else it has to relay on the armored deck.

... it's the

CB-1, Orange light battlecruiser laid down 1922

Hate to see the "Heavy" one.

Well, it is a British style, not a German style Battlecruiser which is why I chose the CB (and not BC) and call them "light". The heavy is reserved for 30+ kn ships armored against their own guns.

Slightly modified, but is it better...?
CB-1, Orange light battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
   38.500 t light; 40.700 t standard; 45.268 t normal; 48.922 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   859,59 ft / 853,02 ft x 108,27 ft x 31,54 ft (normal load)
   262,00 m / 260,00 m x 33,00 m  x 9,61 m

Armament:
      6 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2.314,85lbs / 1.050,00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.282 lbs / 6.932 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   524,93 ft / 160,00 m   14,44 ft / 4,40 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   328,08 ft / 100,00 m   12,50 ft / 3,81 m
   Upper:   2,05" / 52 mm   524,93 ft / 160,00 m   13,78 ft / 4,20 m
     Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,97" / 50 mm   524,93 ft / 160,00 m   29,23 ft / 8,91 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,4" / 340 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      13,0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   4,72" / 120 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   4,72" / 120 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   4th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13,78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 160.000 shp / 119.360 Kw = 30,38 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 21,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8.222 tons

Complement:
   1.551 - 2.017

Cost:
   £10,030 million / $40,121 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.870 tons, 4,1%
   Armour: 12.948 tons, 28,6%
      - Belts: 4.451 tons, 9,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.118 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 2.334 tons, 5,2%
      - Armour Deck: 4.668 tons, 10,3%
      - Conning Tower: 377 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 5.427 tons, 12,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.255 tons, 38,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.768 tons, 15,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 1.000 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     61.621 lbs / 27.951 Kg = 27,3 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 9,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 7,6 ft / 2,3 m
   Roll period: 16,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,544
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,02 ft / 0,31 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,50 ft / 9,60 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Mid (50%):      21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Stern:      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,69 ft / 6,91 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168,4%
   Waterplane Area: 64.092 Square feet or 5.954 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 949 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,08
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

misc:
750 t Fire Control (3x, forward, aft and central)
75 t electric ranging (Radar, 3x, forward, aft and central)
50 t long-range-radio (main & backup)
25 t Sonar

[P3D]

What is the advantage of a 42cm/45 gun vs. a 16"/50 one?

Ah, and the TRIPLE fire control. WHY?

[Guinness]

I suppose a 42cm/45 could be expected to have lower MV and better deck penetration...

Triple fire control: completely unnecessary. I'll say it again: a 250t FC installation has all the hardware necessary for a "normal" capital ship fit, including rangefinders, fire control tables, and secondary directors. Sometime in the very near future, we won't even be requiring extra weight for it...

[Nobody]

What is the advantage of a 42cm/45 gun vs. a 16"/50 one?

Ah, and the TRIPLE fire control. WHY?

I suppose a 42cm/45 could be expected to have lower MV and better deck penetration...

Triple fire control: completely unnecessary. I'll say it again: a 250t FC installation has all the hardware necessary for a "normal" capital ship fit, including rangefinders, fire control tables, and secondary directors. Sometime in the very near future, we won't even be requiring extra weight for it...

16"/50 is not an option yet. Since 16.5" is clearly not in the 18"-class I decided to go from my current 16"/40 to 42cm/45 also to avoid mixing them up.

Well I thought of a FC-System as one rangefinder, since ships usually have several of them I reserved the weight for them. If that's not the case I'll gladly save the weight and go back to a single one.

[The Rock Doctor]

Two suggestions:  cut back on the fuel - which is really excessive for a continental power like Orange - and knock off the end and upper belts.

Range was defined by coast length, besides whats the distance between Durban and the Orange Islands (located on the other side of the Indian Ocean)?
The ship isn't big enough for an AoN-Armor. It will have a classical citadel layout, so anti-cruiser and waterline protection is essential, for everything else it has to relay on the armored deck.

I'm not quite sure what the distance is; however, I'd note that at 21 knots and 6,000 nm, that's still almost two weeks of steaming:  by then, your islands have either been captured or the bad guys have gone home. 

There's also no way for escorts to keep up, either.  They'll need at least one refueling stop, if not multiples.