new Orange ships and projects

[Guinness]

On first blush To get down under 6000t, you probably need to accept one or more of:

- less guns (maybe 6 singles?). If you go with open single mounts, you can live with less armor there too.
- thinner belt and deck. I think 75mm belt certainly should be plenty for such a ship, as should a 25mm deck
- less bunkerage (7000 at 18knots seems a lot)

[P3D]

Forget upper and end belts, deck to 25mm, reduce freeboard (seekeeping would be reduced too but you are already at 31kts.
Use freed up tonnage to add more guns. You don't need that much range, as the light cruisers will operate with the fleet.

Check the last two pages (esp. reply #40) of previous Orange studies.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1171.30

[Nobody]

Although contradictory this was helpful.

What do you think about about this?:

6 kt Cruiser, Orange Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   6.000 t light; 6.221 t standard; 7.106 t normal; 7.815 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550,59 ft / 544,62 ft x 55,77 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   167,82 m / 166,00 m x 17,00 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 921 lbs / 418 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,36" / 60 mm   400,26 ft / 122,00 m   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 113% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,97" / 50 mm   0,79" / 20 mm      2,36" / 60 mm
   2nd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3,15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 59.932 shp / 44.710 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 5.000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.594 tons

Complement:
   386 - 503

Cost:
   £1,418 million / $5,674 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 115 tons, 1,6%
   Armour: 818 tons, 11,5%
      - Belts: 404 tons, 5,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 45 tons, 0,6%
      - Armour Deck: 344 tons, 4,8%
      - Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 2.096 tons, 29,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.683 tons, 37,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.106 tons, 15,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 288 tons, 4,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6.727 lbs / 3.052 Kg = 62,3 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
   Metacentric height 3,1 ft / 0,9 m
   Roll period: 13,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,27
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,416
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,34 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2,03 ft / 0,62 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (52%):      19,03 ft / 5,80 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Stern:      13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,03 ft / 4,88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104,2%
   Waterplane Area: 18.885 Square feet or 1.754 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 437 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,30
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

misc.:
100 t FC
25 t Radio
25 t Radar
25 t Sonar
25 t Searchlights & Night fighting equipment
60 t Torpedos (30 = 1 plus 1.5 reloads per tube)
28 t Dept charges (56)

[Sachmle]

I know which parts I'll be aiming for

28 t Dept charges (56)

[TexanCowboy]

I think it's well balanced for a light cruiser....for some idea's, go to WW and look at the SAE light cruisers. They have some really good ones at 5-6,000 tons.

[P3D]

I know which parts I'll be aiming for

The center of Mass as usual? Not as if you could reasonably hit any specific part of the ship from ~15km.
Also, the explosives in the mines themselves should be relatively inert, so...

[Sachmle]

I know which parts I'll be aiming for

The center of Mass as usual? Not as if you could reasonably hit any specific part of the ship from ~15km.
Also, the explosives in the mines themselves should be relatively inert, so...

Thank you Cpt. Sarcasmisunknowntome. Yes..I know you'd probably never hit the depth charges on purpose. However, sympathetic detonation of 56 depth charges should be interesting to watch at least. My point was the why would a CL carry depth charges to begin with, let alone 56 of them.

[P3D]

I know which parts I'll be aiming for

The center of Mass as usual? Not as if you could reasonably hit any specific part of the ship from ~15km.
Also, the explosives in the mines themselves should be relatively inert, so...

Thank you Cpt. Sarcasmisunknowntome. Yes..I know you'd probably never hit the depth charges on purpose. However, sympathetic detonation of 56 depth charges should be interesting to watch at least. My point was the why would a CL carry depth charges to begin with, let alone 56 of them.

In the last three hours I was skimming over like two dozen physics articles, so I will have to make some effort not taking everything literally for this evening... ;)

[Sachmle]

I know which parts I'll be aiming for

The center of Mass as usual? Not as if you could reasonably hit any specific part of the ship from ~15km.
Also, the explosives in the mines themselves should be relatively inert, so...

Thank you Cpt. Sarcasmisunknowntome. Yes..I know you'd probably never hit the depth charges on purpose. However, sympathetic detonation of 56 depth charges should be interesting to watch at least. My point was the why would a CL carry depth charges to begin with, let alone 56 of them.

In the last three hours I was skimming over like two dozen physics articles, so I will have to make some effort not taking everything literally for this evening... ;)

Fair enough. :)

[ctwaterman]

Someone send P3D some Vodka or Burbon or Scotch oh heck all three...

[Tanthalas]

Someone send P3D some Vodka or Burbon or Scotch oh heck all three...

That shit will kill ya, oh wait im on my 6th Scotch of the evening so I shouldnt talk...

[Nobody]

...for some idea's, go to WW and look at the SAE light cruisers. They have some really good ones at 5-6,000 tons.

You have a link? My search didn't give any usable results.

[Jefgte]

6500t from NUS

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4718.0


Jef  ;)

[Sachmle]

...for some idea's, go to WW and look at the SAE light cruisers. They have some really good ones at 5-6,000 tons.

You have a link? My search didn't give any usable results.

South African Empire's 2nd Class Cruisers (PC/CLs)

[Nobody]

Valles recent designs of relatively slow but heavily armed and armored cruisers made me think about a similar concept. Design goal was high firepower protection of the vitals against cruisers and "immunity" of the entire hull against destroyer guns while beeing faster than the battle-line (by ~2 knots). Despite pretty big, I don't find them satisfactory. Especially compared to the French miniBB studies at similar size, their value seems questionable.

Suggestions to improve seakeeping, stability and steadiness?

Baby Juggernaut, Orange Panzerkreuzer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   17.000 t light; 17.955 t standard; 20.748 t normal; 22.982 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557,76 ft / 551,18 ft x 73,82 ft (Bulges 80,38 ft) x 27,56 ft (normal load)
   170,00 m / 168,00 m x 22,50 m (Bulges 24,50 m)  x 8,40 m

Armament:
      12 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns (4x3 guns), 389,34lbs / 176,60kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (12x2 guns), 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns in single mounts, 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 6.178 lbs / 2.802 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   393,70 ft / 120,00 m   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   157,48 ft / 48,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   393,70 ft / 120,00 m   7,55 ft / 2,30 m
     Main Belt covers 110% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,97" / 50 mm   393,70 ft / 120,00 m   29,53 ft / 9,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,66" / 220 mm   5,91" / 150 mm      8,27" / 210 mm
   2nd:   3,94" / 100 mm   1,57" / 40 mm      3,94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 8,66" / 220 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 64.777 shp / 48.324 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 19,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.028 tons

Complement:
   863 - 1.123

Cost:
   £3,689 million / $14,757 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 772 tons, 3,7%
   Armour: 7.129 tons, 34,4%
      - Belts: 2.943 tons, 14,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 847 tons, 4,1%
      - Armament: 1.474 tons, 7,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1.725 tons, 8,3%
      - Conning Tower: 141 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 2.265 tons, 10,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.518 tons, 31,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.748 tons, 18,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28.369 lbs / 12.868 Kg = 72,9 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 5,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,595
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,35 ft / 1,02 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Mid (55%):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Stern:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,7%
   Waterplane Area: 29.612 Square feet or 2.751 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 695 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,46
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

misc
100 t FC
25 t secondary FC
50 t two "Radars"
25 t Radio
25 t Sonar
40 t splinter protection
25 t extra pumps
25 t extra damage control


And a smaller variant:
Baby Juggernaut, Orange Panzerkreuzer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   13.000 t light; 13.707 t standard; 15.727 t normal; 17.343 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   551,17 ft / 544,62 ft x 65,62 ft (Bulges 72,18 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   168,00 m / 166,00 m x 20,00 m (Bulges 22,00 m)  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      9 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns (3x3 guns), 389,34lbs / 176,60kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns in single mounts, 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 4.507 lbs / 2.044 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   14,76 ft / 4,50 m
   Ends:   3,15" / 80 mm   183,73 ft / 56,00 m   11,81 ft / 3,60 m
   Upper:   3,15" / 80 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   7,22 ft / 2,20 m
     Main Belt covers 102% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,57" / 40 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   29,53 ft / 9,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,66" / 220 mm   5,91" / 150 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   3,15" / 80 mm   1,38" / 35 mm      3,94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 52.742 shp / 39.345 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.636 tons

Complement:
   701 - 912

Cost:
   £2,804 million / $11,217 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 563 tons, 3,6%
   Armour: 5.137 tons, 32,7%
      - Belts: 2.373 tons, 15,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 621 tons, 3,9%
      - Armament: 964 tons, 6,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1.073 tons, 6,8%
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 1.844 tons, 11,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.155 tons, 32,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.727 tons, 17,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20.833 lbs / 9.450 Kg = 53,5 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 3,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,2 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 17,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,534
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,34 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2,79 ft / 0,85 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (55%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,11 ft / 5,22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110,6%
   Waterplane Area: 24.558 Square feet or 2.282 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 637 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,39
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

misc
100 t FC
25 t secondary FC
50 t two "Radars"
25 t Radio
25 t Sonar
75 t splinter protection