Tillman Destroyer

[TexanCowboy]

I was thinking about what a Tillman, or, in this timeline, a Timbre destroyer would be like. So I simmed this:

Destructivo, Glourious France Super-Destroyer, laid down 1917

Displacement:
   8,353 t light; 9,042 t standard; 10,584 t normal; 11,817 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   667.10 ft / 665.00 ft x 60.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
   203.33 m / 202.69 m x 18.29 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
     4 - 7.00" / 178 mm guns in single mounts, 171.50lbs / 77.79kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     20 - 7.00" / 178 mm guns in single mounts, 171.50lbs / 77.79kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     40 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.72kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     50 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,983 lbs / 2,260 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   40 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 10 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm         -               -
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm         -               -

  - Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 139,160 shp / 103,813 Kw = 36.80 kts
   Range 8,100nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,775 tons

Complement:
   521 - 678

Cost:
   £2.781 million / $11.125 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 623 tons, 5.9 %
   Armour: 306 tons, 2.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 202 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 104 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 5,101 tons, 48.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,159 tons, 20.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,231 tons, 21.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 164 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,450 lbs / 658 Kg = 8.5 x 7.0 " / 178 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.76
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.422
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.64 ft / 5.07 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 225.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 54.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,910 Square feet or 2,314 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 266 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.59
      - Overall: 0.50
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

100 tons for torpedos
25 tons for fire control
34 tons for a reserve, or a second fire control.

Something new for Glourious France to build. :)

[maddox]

Tiny problem, not even Glorious France can deny the laws of nature.

Best Glorious France can do is a 1500 ton DD, thanks to the generous New Swiss.

[TexanCowboy]

Thats not nature.  :). Still, you have to admit this would be fun. Maybe you could make a exception to build the escorts for the Masque?  :D

[maddox]

Nope, Masque will get Demarce IV cruisers in the role as DD's

[TexanCowboy]

Your links busted, and come on, or else Japan will build them.

[Desertfox]

Mommy!!! I want one!

[Guinness]

beside the fact that we don't have a DD tech that covers ships over 8,000 tons light, my biggest issue with this ship is:

Not Enough Deck Space

[TexanCowboy]

You can't say that  :). Its Borys's line  :D

[The Bushranger]

*twitch*

*twitch twitch*

7" guns...on a 8,000 ton ship...

*drools*
*starts planning cruisers*

[maddox]

8000 tons +, to be sunk with 1 hit in a 7" magazine. And there are a shitload of those, 24 to be exact

Nah, waste of money.

Remove the 20 7" guns on the side, and replace with a 12" twin turret amidships. Armor that against 8" guns.

[Desertfox]

This is actually legal (or will be), and something NS will build. Pity the speed is so slow.


New Switzerland Light Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1,948 t light; 2,048 t standard; 2,622 t normal; 3,082 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   400.00 ft / 400.00 ft x 37.00 ft x 15.90 ft (normal load)
   121.92 m / 121.92 m x 11.28 m  x 4.85 m

Armament:
      5 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 556 lbs / 252 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 19.7" / 500.38 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm     50.00 ft / 15.24 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 19 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 31,494 shp / 23,494 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,034 tons

Complement:
   183 - 238

Cost:
   £0.639 million / $2.556 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 69 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 229 tons, 8.7 %
      - Belts: 32 tons, 1.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 26 tons, 1.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 168 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 1,027 tons, 39.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 572 tons, 21.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 674 tons, 25.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     759 lbs / 344 Kg = 7.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.390
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.50 ft / 3.81 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,063 Square feet or 842 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.49
      - Longitudinal: 0.86
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[eltf177]

I definitely agree, NEDS! Also way too much CT armor and not nearly enough for hull/magazine protection. BTW, is the Main Battery layout A/P/Q/Y?

The other problem is I don't think you can use DD FC on this. I really think you'll have to use the 100 ton cruiser FC if not the 250 ton FC that AC's are required to use.

Other than that a _very_ scary design!

[The Rock Doctor]

This is an explosion waiting to be set off.

Edit:  I refer to the original submission, not Foxy's reasonable-in-comparison design further down.

[mentat]

Maybe change the name is misleading - make a great destroyer leader - that is intention isn't it?

And I don't see any problem with NEDS - gun layout looks like A (B)    Q (X) Y - ?? - like the French Contre -Torpilleurs

Speed is also fine - they have good endurance - just as important to maintain 25+ knots , most small DDs have trouble making max speed in anything except calm conditions

On the 'armour' - maybe just have splinter protection around the Mags - sufficient for a DL

Overall - I like 'em   ;D    - but not vs Cruisers - that would be silly ....

[eltf177]

New Switzerland Light Cruiser laid down 1920

Armament:
      5 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft

Curious as to what the layout is...