Ottoman Light Cruiser Design Contest

[Kaiser Kirk]

NS & Dutch - similar ships, both have deep hulls, low BCs and a huge amount of fuel, driving down their displacement.

DKB- minor point, can't have 85,000shp on just 2 props. The lack of an armor deck is more interesting. One would presume the speed would mean combat at range, where a deck is of more import.

Rumania : Small, huge fuel tanks. And a 1917 engine- not that it makes much difference. However 30m less than the others with more guns. However too slow for the spec.

[TexanCowboy]

I only have 12,000 shp tech.

[Logi]

The Ottoman Empire is building them, not you. Therefore we are following their engine tech, not yours.

[TexanCowboy]

They only have 12,000 shp, so I'm the only one below the limit.

[Logi]

No, if I read correctly on the sim reports, they have 20k shp per shaft.

Besides Miketr said

1916 oil fired engines

and that's the 20k shp tech.

[TexanCowboy]

Sorry about that. Thanks for pointing that out. Here's the modified and improved design. It has enough mines to act as a fleet minelayer.



Sultun Osman, Ottoman Empire Light Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   7,244 t light; 7,504 t standard; 7,829 t normal; 8,088 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   511.75 ft / 500.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   155.98 m / 152.40 m x 15.24 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (1x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      10 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns in single mounts, 13.39lbs / 6.08kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      20 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 1,166 lbs / 529 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.10" / 28 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,901 shp / 60,352 Kw = 32.08 kts
   Range 5,128nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 584 tons

Complement:
   415 - 540

Cost:
   £1.451 million / $5.803 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 146 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 1,271 tons, 16.2 %
      - Belts: 740 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 152 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 354 tons, 4.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,014 tons, 38.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,562 tons, 32.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 585 tons, 7.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 3.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,051 lbs / 1,838 Kg = 39.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.71

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (3 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (3 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.04 ft / 4.89 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 144.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,415 Square feet or 1,618 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 437 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

20 tons for torpedoes
100 tons for mines
30 tons for depth charges
100 tons for fire control

[Sachmle]

DKB- minor point, can't have 85,000shp on just 2 props. The lack of an armor deck is more interesting. One would presume the speed would mean combat at range, where a deck is of more import.

Oops...was a quicky. Here is fixed version:

Unnamed, Ottoman Light Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   7,250 t light; 7,535 t standard; 8,308 t normal; 8,926 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.75 ft / 551.18 ft x 55.12 ft x 16.80 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 168.00 m x 16.80 m  x 5.12 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 850 lbs / 386 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.76" / 70 mm   463.75 ft / 141.35 m   10.24 ft / 3.12 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 129 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.36" / 60 mm   0.59" / 15 mm      2.76" / 70 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 31.95 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,391 tons

Complement:
   434 - 565

Cost:
   £1.382 million / $5.529 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 106 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 987 tons, 11.9 %
      - Belts: 526 tons, 6.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 44 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 393 tons, 4.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,981 tons, 35.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,976 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,058 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,311 lbs / 2,863 Kg = 61.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 13.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.05 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   22.15 ft / 6.75 m
      - Mid (55 %):      22.15 ft / 6.75 m (13.94 ft / 4.25 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Stern:      13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.86 ft / 5.75 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 129.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,599 Square feet or 2,007 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 428 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Kaiser Kirk]

Stablimento Tecnico Triestino will submit the following design.
While they do not have direct access to a 150mm twin mount for evaluation, they expect they can figure the appropriate stresses (i.e. have tech, haven't bothered with twin mount).


Bazibazouk, Ottoman Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   7,241 t light; 7,561 t standard; 8,390 t normal; 9,053 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   527.01 ft / 518.37 ft x 57.41 ft x 18.37 ft (normal load)
   160.63 m / 158.00 m x 17.50 m  x 5.60 m

Armament:
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 1,081 lbs / 490 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   12 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   374.02 ft / 114.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.20" / 5 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 1.38" / 35 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 63,736 shp / 47,547 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,492 tons

Complement:
   437 - 569

Cost:
   £1.272 million / $5.087 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 135 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 1,318 tons, 15.7 %
      - Belts: 699 tons, 8.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 53 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 523 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 42 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,375 tons, 28.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,091 tons, 36.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,149 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 3.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,394 lbs / 4,261 Kg = 91.2 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.537
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.03 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.20 ft / 7.68 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.13 ft / 6.44 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.13 ft / 6.44 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m (21.13 ft / 6.44 m before break)
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.25 ft / 6.17 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,520 Square feet or 1,906 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 451 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Main battery is A, B, Q, Y, X
75mm are in P1, 5 & S  1, 5
Torpedoes are in P2, 4 &  S 2, 4

Quarterdeck is cut down serve as a mine deck.

100 tons Fire control
25 tons long range wireless
120 tons mines
12 tons torpedoes
65 tons construction reserve
----
322

[The Rock Doctor]

To my thinking, most of these designs have excessive bunkerage.  Of course, there's no cost penalty with that, and something to be gained from the larger hull, so I recognize why it's happening.  I just don't see it being necessary for cruisers that are probbaly not going to leave the Eastern Med/Bosporous/Black Sea.

Of the designs presented so far, I like the latest Bavarian design most.  However, I'd be curious to see what ledeper could do if he dumped his upper belt and some bunkerage in exchange for a 3.5 metre main belt.

I think a modified Colombian Cesar-class, with four twins in place of seven single 14cm and a bit of speed, could do the trick - but out of respect to my Hapsburger friends, there will be no Colombian submission.

[Guinness]

The CSA has a design on the drawing board. It would have been submitted last night, if not for a moment of national crisis (namely work calling me at home). So maybe tonight.

[Desertfox]

Its just that most of these ships were originally designed for use in the Pacific, where 15k @ 15 is a must. The Swiss/Ottoman design is actually too short-legged for Pacific work.

[Korpen]

To my thinking, most of these designs have excessive bunkerage.  Of course, there's no cost penalty with that, and something to be gained from the larger hull, so I recognize why it's happening.  I just don't see it being necessary for cruisers that are probbaly not going to leave the Eastern Med/Bosporous/Black Sea.

Reason I went with long range is that it allows high-speed operations into the western Mediterranean (against Iberia), as well as for operations in the Indian ocean. Having the possibility to make fast (mining) raids against the habsburg and Iberian heartlands is usefull, if nothing else it might tie down enemy forces in home defence.
It gives the Ottomans a tool that can reach and strike the enemy, and that might make it worthwile from the morale point alone.

[miketr]

Going into the Adriatic Sea is dicy for the Ottomans right now...  Malta is possible I think and Eastern Spain is possible if with risky.  Indian Ocean operations have potential.  I will respond in more detail tonight.

[Guinness]

The Confederate submission. Smaller and more economical than some of the others, but designed to be sturdy and well rounded for general purpose duties. Range is expected to be adequate for expected Ottoman operations:

CSS Submission for Ottoman Cruiser, Ottoman Empire Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   6,350 t light; 6,559 t standard; 7,071 t normal; 7,482 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   513.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
   156.36 m / 152.40 m x 15.24 m  x 5.49 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 605 lbs / 274 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 126 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm      1.50" / 38 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66,000 shp / 49,236 Kw = 31.01 kts
   Range 6,160nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 923 tons

Complement:
   385 - 501

Cost:
   £1.158 million / $4.632 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 1,063 tons, 15.0 %
      - Belts: 694 tons, 9.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 23 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 323 tons, 4.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,459 tons, 34.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,490 tons, 35.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 722 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 254 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,461 lbs / 2,477 Kg = 65.6 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.13 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.50 ft / 8.08 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (49 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.39 ft / 5.91 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 126.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,447 Square feet or 1,621 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 394 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.88
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:
100t: Fire Control
100t: Mines
25t: Long Range Marconi
8t: 4 Torpedoes
21t: Reserve

Range at 10 knots: 9080 nm
Range at 15 knots: 3720 nm
Range at 25 knots: 983 nm
Range at top speed: 515 nm or 16.6 hours

[mentat]

Interesting design contest - I did start work on a submission - and checked out variants on it.

only to check back in and see the latest Bavarian design - is indeed very good.

So instead of posting what now seems a bit second rate - I will comment on design emphasis.

I have strong feeling these 2 ships need to be able to oudistance bigger more powerful 29 knot cruisers - that needs min. 31 knots

At the same time. on this size - trying to reach 32/32,5 knots really reduces combat capability

I agree range requirement is more modest (7500 at 12 knots should suffice) -  the longer range aggressive mission possibilities mentioned by some - are indeed interesting but I think are a further next step for Ottomans - maybe the next pair of CLs

However - more Firepower always seems good idea - and if 5 twin turret positions is a likely maximum - how about taking up France's friendly offer of the 165 mm - 10 of those gives slightly longer gunnery range and a 1400lb broadside ...

Could we have this version of the Bavarian to compare? ;D 

(might need to trim misc wt a bit - fewer mines + cut back on the reserve)