New and Improved Swiss Ships for 1917...

[Desertfox]

First of an improved version of the multi-purpose ships already in service. Main changes are a new oil-fired turbo-electric drive and slightly cheaper cost.

The bulk of these will be built as minewarfare ships. When not carrying mines or minesweeping equipment, these ships can be fitted with 4 fixed (ala PT boats) 19.7" torpedo tubes or an extra 4" gun.  One out of every five will be built as a leader, replacing the minewarfare equipment with a wireless and flag facilities. 120 of these are planned.


M-24 class, New Switzerland Multi Purpose Minesweeper laid down 1917

Displacement:
   250 t light; 262 t standard; 291 t normal; 315 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   220.00 ft / 220.00 ft x 22.00 ft x 5.40 ft (normal load)
   67.06 m / 67.06 m x 6.71 m  x 1.65 m

Armament:
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 36 lbs / 16 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 270
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 4,231 shp / 3,157 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 1,400nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 53 tons

Complement:
   34 - 45

Cost:
   £0.049 million / $0.197 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 126 tons, 43.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 95 tons, 32.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 41 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 8.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     129 lbs / 59 Kg = 4.0 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.390
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Mid (50 %):      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m before break)
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   9.10 ft / 2.77 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 161.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,964 Square feet or 275 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.55
      - Overall: 0.56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight Breakdown

Standard:
20t Minesweeping Gear/ Mines/ ASW Equipment
4t Night Fighting Mods 'Black Cats'
2t Hydrophones

Leader:
10t Wireless
10t Flagship Facilities
4t Hydrophones

[The Rock Doctor]

I recognize it's all legal, but - 0.39 BC, 10:1 hull ratio, and 0.50 cross-sectional hull strength for a 24 kt boat?  Smells kinda "powergame-y"...

How long will it take you to build 120?

[Desertfox]

Well the dimensions are the same as the old ones and the bulk of the Swiss fleet is made up of 25-27kt destroyers. And well, I will be paying destroyer money for 24kt ships.

If slips where not a problem and I only built these, I could build 136 per year. I'm thinking 24 per year, so 5 years.

[The Rock Doctor]

True, that bit about cost.

About the rate I figured.  I have a less ambitious but still good-sized patrol vessel program lined up for the next little while too.

[TexanCowboy]

Romania can build 4-6 a year for you.

[maddox]

Rocky, I see redeeming features.

Our Dark Lord of Chaos didn't use the speed calculator on these small very short ranged  coastal guard ships. In theory these could be faster.
And best of all,  the armament and armor doesn't exceed 2%, so they could even be mercantile.


On the other hand, we all see clearly that these are dedicated coast guard ships with excellent defensive capabilities. Meaning they are solid naval ships.

PS, I do like them, can France buy a few hulls?

[Guinness]

Our Dark Lord of Chaos didn't use the speed calculator on these small very short ranged  coastal guard ships. In theory these could be faster.
And best of all,  the armament and armor doesn't exceed 2%, so they could even be mercantile.

Da rulez say:

Moderators may require a ship to be built to normal military standards if they believe that the intent of a design is to produce a cheap warship.

In my mind that allows me to say this: I do not think one can build a ship that is both built to the Destroyer/TB architecture and built to mercantile standards. They should be mutually exclusive.

[The Rock Doctor]

Agreed.

[maddox]

Guinnes.  Purely by the rules the ships could have been mercantile build.

But then we all 3 would have said "NAH, forget it".

[Desertfox]

@ Maddox, I'll have to think about it. What can France offer?

Those are warships, and I'll pay for them as such. And no, no speed calculator on these. Now these OTOH...

...will be built to mercantile standards. Basiclly armed fishing trawlers as one cannot have too many minesweepers.

P-1, New Switzerland Patrol Boat laid down 1916

Displacement:
   101 t light; 104 t standard; 112 t normal; 119 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   150.00 ft / 150.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 3.00 ft (normal load)
   45.72 m / 45.72 m x 6.10 m  x 0.91 m

Armament:
      1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 2 lbs / 1 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 1 shaft, 456 shp / 340 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 1,700nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 15 tons

Complement:
   16 - 22

Cost:
   £0.010 million / $0.040 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.2 %
   Armour: 0 tons, 0.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 17 tons, 15.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 63 tons, 56.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 11 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 17.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     366 lbs / 166 Kg = 187.6 x 1.6 " / 40 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.53

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.435
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Mid (40 %):      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   7.48 ft / 2.28 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,797 Square feet or 167 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 198 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.76
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weight Breakdown:
10t Minesweeping Gear
5t Wireless
5t Reserve

[Kaiser Kirk]

I like the concept. Did it myself, which may (I can't recall) have been influence by the New Swiss  :)

Folks didn't like it when I put a 4" gun on my proposed gunboats...though to be fair I had more than one so I downgunned to 88mm.

Mine were the same 24kt-25kt range, but the calculator kicks that up to 28-29kts, well worth the fractional extra cost of DD construction.

I like the leader concept. May follow suit.

[Desertfox]

The new standard destroyer class. Slower and smaller than most other destroyers out there, this is a case of quantity beats quality. These ships also have the range and performance to operate effectively in the Pacific.


Kidd class, New Switzerland Destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   900 t light; 953 t standard; 1,146 t normal; 1,299 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   320.00 ft / 320.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 11.90 ft (normal load)
   97.54 m / 97.54 m x 8.23 m  x 3.63 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 176 lbs / 80 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 290
   6 - 19.7" / 500.38 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 20,558 shp / 15,337 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 4,200nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 346 tons

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0.209 million / $0.836 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 22 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 556 tons, 48.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 293 tons, 25.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 245 tons, 21.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     275 lbs / 125 Kg = 8.6 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 11.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.390
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.85 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Mid (35 %):      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.81 ft / 3.29 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,291 Square feet or 492 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 137 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.20
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Guinness]

(Fresh off defending bunkerage sizes in another thread...)

I think this has been asked before, but are electric motors a characteristic of all Swiss DD designs? I can't think of a real life DD design before the turbo electric DEs of WW2 that had turbo-electric propulsion. Of course, SS doesn't penalize us for using electric motors like it should, but what's the advantage for a DD?

[Desertfox]

Yes, turbo-electric will be used in all Swiss DD designs and it has nothing to do with range. The ambush at Yantai has not been forgotten by the Swiss Navy. Since then the Swiss Navy has looked at ways at detecting ships at night and avoiding detection. Turbo-electric drive helps on both counts. All new Swiss destroyers carry hydrophones and they are not for detecting submerged submarines. Period hydrophones require a quiet platform to operate effectively, something that electric drive provides. At the same time, electric drive increases the ability of the ships to pull of an ambush at night.

[ctwaterman]

Uh  your still running boilers and pumps to move the oil and all of that.  And then simply transfering the created electricity to an electric motor.  While quieter then say a reciprocating engine they are not all that much quieter then a direct drive.

Charles