Old Romanian Ships

[TexanCowboy]

Okay, first how do I paste a Springsharp file here. I'll come back and paste them when I find out how

[Guinness]

The way most of us do it is to copy/paste from the report field in SS2 and put it in quote tags so it looks nice.

[TexanCowboy]

i can't seems to copy it. the copy feature is not working. I'll work on it later.

[Guinness]

In Spring Sharp 2:

- Click on the Report button on the top right
- Click on the Report tab
- Click in the Report itself
- Click Edit->Select All (or type ctrl-a)
- Click Edit->Copy (or type ctrl-c)

Then in a reply to this thread:

- Click the quote button (the one with the little thought balloon icon), that will get you a pair of quote tags.
- Put the cursor between quote tags
- Click Edit->Paste, etc.

The part that first tripped me up once upon a time was the clicking in the report, select all business. Also if you edit the additional notes field in SS2, you'll have to regenerate the report, by clicking the report button again.

[TexanCowboy]

The current flagship of the Romania fleet, Elisaveti would be just a frigate in most fleets. However, Romania doesn't have much.  Advice is appricated



Elisaveti, Romania Armoured Cruiser laid down 1895

Displacement:
   1,351 t light; 1,404 t standard; 1,457 t normal; 1,500 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.62 m  x 4.57 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (2x2 guns), 51.91lbs / 23.55kg shells, 1895 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1895 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1895 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 262 lbs / 119 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 15.0" / 381 mm above water torpedoes, 2 - 15.0" / 381 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.00" / 25 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   1.00 ft / 0.30 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 2,979 ihp / 2,222 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 96 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   117 - 153

Cost:
   £0.138 million / $0.553 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 428 tons, 29.4 %
      - Belts: 287 tons, 19.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 33 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 78 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 30 tons, 2.1 %
   Machinery: 452 tons, 31.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 436 tons, 29.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 106 tons, 7.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     836 lbs / 379 Kg = 16.1 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.544
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   11.07 ft / 3.37 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.07 ft / 3.37 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.07 ft / 3.37 m
      - Stern:      11.07 ft / 3.37 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.58 ft / 3.53 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,202 Square feet or 390 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 217 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.74
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

The 2 tons of Misc weight is for 8 marines.

[Guinness]

This is a good start. There are few little issues though:

- The Russian guns are all actually metric calibers, I believe, and listed with close approximations in imperial. So for instance the 4.7" gun is actually exactly 120mm. I presume that this ship is equipped with the older Russian model 1892 120mm/45, which fires a 45.15 pound shell, as the newer 120mm/50 wasn't developed until 1902. Generally most of us stick to the ammunition of the original design in our licensed copies.

Blooded's kept a list of the Russian's naval artillery here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2926.0. Anything older then the list I already gave you is probably ok for use in re-simming your own ships (again unless Blooded objects).

- Her range is very small. I expect Romanian ships to have relatively short legs, as the Black Sea isn't all that big, but 1000 at 12 might be too short legged. At top speed, she might only go about 200 miles. For endurance in modern cruisers, I've adopted a USN style 24 hours at top speed + x nautical miles. Others have a city pair that a ship will need to transit between. For you it might be the trip from Romania to the entrance of the Bosporus or something.

- SS2 allocates no weight for torpedoes, so you have to add that in your misc weight. There is a table in the ship design guidelines thread in the rules on that. Also, if you ship any reloads, you have to add those to the total number in SS2 (ie it's counting actual fish, not tubes).

- Right now her composite strength is 1.01, so you have a little room to cram more stuff in.

[Jefgte]

Not a bad ship to start

-decrease perhaps freeboard
-increase misc weight

-Overall: 1.0

If you want right displacement (1350t)
adjust the draught in mm.
ex: 4.5685m

;)

[Sachmle]

Other notes:

Twin mounts require 'mount & hoist' tech, which I don't think Romania, or anyone had in 1895. I'd expect her to have 2 side by side singles fore and aft similar to German CLs pre-WWI.

You have a rather high recoil for such a lightly armed vessel, I'd try to increase beam to around 8:1 of length instead of 10:1. You could also add draught.

Your trim setting is a little high on the steadiness side, and low for stability. The 'unwritten' "Sweet spot" is 70% for steadiness and whatever you get for stability, but ususally 1.10 is considered the 'low end'. With you surplus steadiness and stability already at 1.06 you should have no problem getting stability well over 1.10, probably close to 1.20.

[TexanCowboy]

no, it has the 1902. It's my most modern gun.

[maddox]

Texas Cowboy.

As Sam said, twins need at least mount and hoist setups, and those are limited in armor. 2" shield at best.  So, make that 4 singles in side by side single mounts ( 4 deck mounts, side ends). Deck mounts will even have lighter armor, a splinter shield, and if you like your crews happy, extended to a weathershield. (1" shield, and 1" other above deck).

The relevant tech tree bit.

Light Cruiser Architecture - Main battery in deck mounts/casemates
1880 Baseline(0): guns in single mounts or casemates, on side/centerline
1900 Advanced(+1): ammunition hoists, deck torpedo armament, superfiring mounts
1910 Cutting Edge (+5): twin gun mounts (require hoists); powered gun mounts; unrestricted weapon armor

The guns themselfs won't change this , you perfectly can mount a 1850 muzzle loader in a turret and barbette, as you- in theory, can do a 1950 8"  automatic gun in a deck mount-



Jefgt told it too.
I would decrease freeboard overall. Freeboard is what -mostly- makes seakeeping-.  
The French ships, except DD's and TB, are mandated to have at least 1.2, yours has 2.  (other countries aim for 1 in their larger vessels)
So by lowering freeboard, stability and weight is gained to increase other thingss, like torpedo's in the misc weight.

The wet forward warning can be worked upon by increasing the stem, hight of the bow.


Increasing bunkerage will decrease light weight, so by increasing bunkerage after adding all the weightgains  will get you a lighter vessel with longer lengs.  Then you can play with draught and block coëfficent to get the light weight back to 1350 tons. What will give you again hull strenght to load more on the ship.

Such ships of that age, were rarely equipped with belt armor. Use that weight to increase the deck armor, what will result in a very nice protected cruiser 3th class.

And what are the 8 .50 machine guns going to shoot?

[TexanCowboy]

Like this? The machine guns and belt are there because I'm trying to make this ship for operation on the Danube River. I have the 1902 4.7. The belt is to prevent spliter damage.


Elisaveti, Romania Armoured Cruiser laid down 1895

Displacement:
   1,351 t light; 1,404 t standard; 1,457 t normal; 1,500 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.62 m  x 4.57 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns in single mounts, 51.91lbs / 23.55kg shells, 1895 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1895 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1895 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 262 lbs / 119 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 15.0" / 381 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 2,979 ihp / 2,222 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 96 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   117 - 153

Cost:
   £0.144 million / $0.575 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 231 tons, 15.8 %
      - Belts: 102 tons, 7.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 37 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 78 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 14 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 492 tons, 33.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 586 tons, 40.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 106 tons, 7.3 %

[Logi]

Since Romania has 1908 DD tech, I would suggest make DDs instead of cruisers. I'm sure a dd can accomplish more than this cruiser. Also this ship is too short-legged in my opinion.

[Sachmle]

Since Romania has 1908 DD tech, I would suggest make DDs instead of cruisers. I'm sure a dd can accomplish more than this cruiser. Also this ship is too short-legged in my opinion.

He's not "Making" this ship. He already "Had" this ship..and a few others when he took over...there was just never a SS for them.

[Guinness]

What he's doing is trying to flesh out the old ship list that we gave him to start with. The biggest one on that list is the cruiser.

TexanCowboy: try toggling the "in/mm" dropdown on your guns to mm and using metric for your measurements so they come out right. Also you do have the Russian model 1902 120mm gun, but this ship was laid down before 1902, so it would have to use an older gun than that.

Also, you can use engine year 1900 for this ship, which will save you some weight and give you better available endurance.

[TexanCowboy]

Sorry, im american, is there any way i can just play it in inches. I know how to do it, its just hard to comprehend. Thanks for the 1900 tip.