1917 Bavarian Cruiser

[Kaiser Kirk]

The tactical concept is the vessel will steam swiftly into the enemy amphibious fleet, where it will succumb to a hail of shells and explode in a 5MT blast....

ok, so the powder room isn't quite that big...and it's behind a fair amount of armor.

In the original timeline, the Hapsburg class were built in Trieste featuring this nifty looking double casement set up.  With the 180mm/50 gun finishing in II/16, it can be placed in single mounts and casements on a new vessel in 1917. 

Wasn't sure how to deal with the freeboard and the casements wound up making a raised midsection and covering that with the upper belt.  The OTL Hapsburgs seem to have simply armored the casements, not the spaces between, but I went for a solid upper belt.

Hull form could be improved, but I am saving that for later generations.  Depth is kept under the 7.5m max of Udine.  Speed is, I believe, decent.


I don't *do* drawings, but I cut and pasted the Wein and Hapsburg classes to give an idea of what the vessel looks like. Length is correct, and I scaled the belts and other lengths off that.

Prinz Regent Luitpold, Bavaria Panzerschiff laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   13,377 t light; 14,110 t standard; 16,016 t normal; 17,541 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.10 ft / 551.18 ft x 63.65 ft (Bulges 73.49 ft) x 24.28 ft (normal load)
   169.50 m / 168.00 m x 19.40 m (Bulges 22.40 m)  x 7.40 m

Armament:
      4 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 4,715 lbs / 2,139 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   387.14 ft / 118.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   200.13 ft / 61.00 m   19.32 ft / 5.89 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.47" / 12 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 87,189 shp / 65,043 Kw = 29.25 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,431 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   711 - 925

Cost:
   £2.672 million / $10.688 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 561 tons, 3.5 %
   Armour: 3,838 tons, 24.0 %
      - Belts: 2,543 tons, 15.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 306 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 909 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,786 tons, 23.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,842 tons, 30.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,639 tons, 16.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,688 lbs / 7,569 Kg = 93.8 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Forecastle (29 %):   17.06 ft / 5.20 m (25.07 ft / 7.64 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      25.07 ft / 7.64 m
      - Quarterdeck (29 %):   17.06 ft / 5.20 m (25.07 ft / 7.64 m before break)
      - Stern:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.42 ft / 6.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,947 Square feet or 2,318 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 568 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.63
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Casements are -5 to +22 as the OTL 17cm on Braunschweig class.
Mounts are -4 to +30
For an 180mm/50 firing a 0.8 form 85kg shell Biggun gives ranges of 20,230yds and 22,740yds. 

Armor : Upper belt covers casements down to +1.75m, Main belt covers from +1.75m to -1.75m.

Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
2x 25t long range set
2x 100t  Fire control primary & secondary
50t - Flag facilities
25t - forced ventilation for tropical service.
25t - "spare"

[miketr]

Would figure you want full turret for the centerline guns.  Also 180mm is big for casement mount and hand loading.  I think we are late enough along that would be clear for nations.

Michael

[Jefgte]

IMO
- 180 are too small for main guns & too big for secondary.
- 85kg shell need hoist

- 24x180 on 13000t...
- 6x254 + 12x152 are better for 13000t


Jef  ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

The HMS Hawkins class was designed 1915, launched 1917, commissioned 1919.
They featured 7 x 19cm guns in handworked center pivot mounts with power assist.  The Hawkins single 7.5" mounting actually weighs less than the twin 6" mountings on the USS Omaha class, which were also mounts. As such I don't think a turret is necessary unless I wanted to mount twins, which is not an available cruiser tech at this point in the sim.

I will point out OTL the US had a 7" casement mount,  Austria Hungary also had a 19cm gun, which was casement mounted, while the Germans had a 6.75" casement gun. I submit that 18cm is not to large for casements.

The rules clearly state that
Secondaries are 4-7" gun which means 180mm falls in the cruiser tech realm, allowing me to mount it A, B, X, Y  in addition to the casements.

I have no turrets developed to put my 10" guns in anyhow. I developed those so I could use the RR gun tech.

My current battleship tech is this :
1890 Baseline (0): Mixed main armament or AQY with double turrets+casemates
and I have no turrets developed to put my 10" guns in anyhow. I built those to utilize the RR tech.

As for needing hoists
You may note the 4 single mounts are indeed mount & hoist.  The little I've read about casements in use (a local author served a 5" casement on USS Maryland in WWII)   indicated they had their own hoists serving several guns

[Borys]

Ahoj!
In OTL Italy had 7,5" twins.
I believe that  I've seen 8" casematte secondaries. Adriey Pervozvannyy semi-dreadnaught class, perphaps? But Navalism and OTL diverge ...
I see no problem if we consider the "18cm" weapon to be actually 7", but the locals round off to the nearest round centimetre ...

On hoists - indeed, 4-5 gunned destroyers or cruisers of WWI era had 1-2 hoists servicing all those guns.

Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

Having the 180mm gun count as 7" was my intent, I didn't stop and note it works out to 7.08". I could always claim the 180mm is from the base of the rifling lands, while the actual bore size is 177mm...

I do note that somewhere in my tinkering with the design the SHP wandered over 80,000. So I will have to reduce speed or go get a better hullform. 

I could lower the speed, probably to 28.75 or so, but I'm of the opinion that 29kts+ is a reasonable target speed (opinions?) so I'll likely have to give up the chubby 7.5:1 hull form.

[The Rock Doctor]

From my perspective, a main battery installed in deck mounts makes it a protected cruiser.  This could apply to 180mm.

29 knots is a decent speed for a cruiser, certainly.

[maddox]

She's a lot bigger than the Demarce IV cruisers, but the IV's use twin 195mm mount and hoist in lightly armored mounts. ( 2" shield, 1" other above deck and 3" hoist/magazine)

But working with the tech you have, this is a very fast, and powerfull gunboat. I like her actualy.

[Kaiser Kirk]

This is the (hopefully) final rework.

Keeping 29kts while getting SHP down under 80,000 was difficult, had to give up the 7.5m draft, so she can't port in Udine. Realized I lacked the submerged TTs she should have for this period, so added 5-  2 each side, 1 under the bow ala WWI German ships. Thinned the upper belt slightly, but increased the casement faces. I think that was the major stuff.

Luitpold, Bavaria Panzerschiff laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   12,962 t light; 13,655 t standard; 15,512 t normal; 16,998 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.10 ft / 551.18 ft x 59.88 ft (Bulges 69.72 ft) x 27.07 ft (normal load)
   169.50 m / 168.00 m x 18.25 m (Bulges 21.25 m)  x 8.25 m

Armament:
     4 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     20 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
     6 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 4,715 lbs / 2,139 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   5 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   400.26 ft / 122.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   147.64 ft / 45.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     3.28 ft / 1.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.31" / 135 mm   200.13 ft / 61.00 m   19.65 ft / 5.99 m
     Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.31" / 135 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   2nd:   5.31" / 135 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      0.79" / 20 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.47" / 12 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 79,878 shp / 59,589 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,343 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   694 - 903

Cost:
   £2.565 million / $10.259 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 561 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 3,872 tons, 25.0 %
      - Belts: 2,450 tons, 15.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 525 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 817 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,469 tons, 22.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,704 tons, 30.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,550 tons, 16.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 356 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,978 lbs / 6,794 Kg = 84.2 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.522
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.91 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Forecastle (29 %):   17.39 ft / 5.30 m (25.39 ft / 7.74 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      25.39 ft / 7.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (29 %):   17.39 ft / 5.30 m (25.39 ft / 7.74 m before break)
      - Stern:      17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.75 ft / 6.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,438 Square feet or 2,085 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 561 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.94
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Casements are -5 to +22 as the OTL 17cm on Braunschweig class.
Mounts are -4 to +30
For an 180mm/50 firing a 0.8 form 85kg shell Biggun gives ranges of 20,230yds and 22,740yds.

Armor : Upper belt covers casements down to +1.75m, Main belt covers from +1.75m to -1.75m.

Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
2x 25t long range set
2x 100t  Fire control primary & secondary
50t - Flag facilities
25t - forced ventilation for tropical service.
16 -  15 torpeoes.  12 aft for 4 broadside tubes aft, 4 forward for forefoot tube.
15t - "spare"

[Borys]

Quaint!