Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer 1917

[Sachmle]

Can I request the SS for a compromise version?  Take hull number one, bring her up to 29 knots, and trim back either belt or deck thickness to keep hull strength at 1.00.

Ask and you shall receive:

Schlachtkreuzer F, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   34,000 t light; 35,390 t standard; 37,685 t normal; 39,521 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 714.80 ft x 102.17 ft x 30.61 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 217.87 m x 31.14 m  x 9.33 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      14 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,370 lbs / 5,611 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   5 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   478.02 ft / 145.70 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   236.75 ft / 72.16 m   12.01 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   298.98 ft / 91.13 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.77" / 45 mm   478.02 ft / 145.70 m   35.27 ft / 10.75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.09" / 180 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 132,000 shp / 98,472 Kw = 29.06 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,131 tons

Complement:
   1,352 - 1,758

Cost:
   £5.765 million / $23.060 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,538 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 14,133 tons, 37.5 %
      - Belts: 5,665 tons, 15.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,105 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 3,147 tons, 8.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,854 tons, 10.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 362 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 4,918 tons, 13.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,961 tons, 34.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,685 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48,455 lbs / 21,979 Kg = 37.0 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 7.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.02 ft / 8.54 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.93 ft / 6.69 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 52,916 Square feet or 4,916 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 861 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.25
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250t FC
25t LR W/T
50t 25 2t 50cm Torpedoes, 5 per tube.
25t Heulsmeyer "Radar"
50t Reserve Weight

[The Rock Doctor]

So it looks like the belt thickness is the only change otherwise - is the length based on your drawing, then?

This looks alright, and I'd speculate that you might be able to hit 30 knots if you shaved off a centimeter of deck armor.

[Sachmle]

So it looks like the belt thickness is the only change otherwise - is the length based on your drawing, then?

Yes, for the most part. I also thinned the turret "other" armor a little. Belt length is based off whatever I was basing it off at the time. It looks like it was most likely the drawing, but I tend to draw something then SS it to see if it works.

This looks alright, and I'd speculate that you might be able to hit 30 knots if you shaved off a centimeter of deck armor.

Probably, but w/ the seakeeping already at 1.07 and the stability and steadiness at 1.10 and 62 I'd have to increase freeboard and beam to keep respectable numbers and that would mean I'd have to cut more weight somewhere else to make up the difference.

All in all I probably won't build any of them. I only have 1 type 3 slip right now and there is a BB in it being built. By the time it clears the slip this will be undergunned/too slow for BCs and the BP cost is HUGE anyway.

[Sachmle]

Of course there is the BB version, basically USS Florida on steroids.

Schlachtschiffen S1, Brandenburg Schlachtschiffen laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   34,000 t light; 35,545 t standard; 37,847 t normal; 39,688 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 714.80 ft x 102.17 ft x 30.61 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 217.87 m x 31.14 m  x 9.33 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all aft
      14 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15,031 lbs / 6,818 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   5 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   478.02 ft / 145.70 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   236.75 ft / 72.16 m   12.01 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   298.98 ft / 91.13 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.77" / 45 mm   478.02 ft / 145.70 m   35.27 ft / 10.75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   15.0" / 380 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   4th:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 54,000 shp / 40,284 Kw = 23.05 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,143 tons

Complement:
   1,356 - 1,763

Cost:
   £5.528 million / $22.110 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,867 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 15,819 tons, 41.8 %
      - Belts: 6,704 tons, 17.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,105 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 3,784 tons, 10.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,863 tons, 10.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 363 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,012 tons, 5.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,902 tons, 36.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,847 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     65,264 lbs / 29,603 Kg = 49.9 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 11.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.593
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.02 ft / 8.54 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (67 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.71 ft / 6.62 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 53,042 Square feet or 4,928 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 924 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.39
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

250t FC
25t LR W/T
25t 25 1t 50cm Torpedoes, 5 per tube.
25t Heulsmeyer "Radar"
25t Reserve Weight

[Jefgte]

- Nice drawing
- Good global concept
- Powerfull BB


;)

[P3D]

Radiante has 5 more guns on 36000t, for 1" less armor overall.

[Sachmle]

Radiante has 5 more guns on 36000t, for 1" less armor overall.

True. But.... not only is my belt 1" heavier, it covers more area length wise and in depth. Radiante's TDS doesn't even come up to the waterline, she's 0.43m short. My upper belt is thicker too, as is my deck (by 20mm). Mine's almost 1kt faster, with similar range. If one uses the SS 'damage' values Radiante will take 35.1 35cm shells or 6.6 torps, mine is 49.9 shells and 11.5 torpedoes. So basic German fundamentals, take a stronger beating than you dish out, and be just a little faster. ;)

[Valles]

Personally I like her a lot, and find it very interesting to compare her to Cross Mirage - they're well-matched foes, with very comparable statistics in most respects.

[Jefgte]

I have noted too;

Armour is: 15,819 tons, 41.8 % ...  :o

[Borys]

I have noted too;

Armour is: 15,819 tons, 41.8 % ...  :o

DKB warships make Habsburg vessels look like tin cans ... :D

Sachmle beat me by 0.3!

Borys

[Jefgte]

...High speed to escape heavy armor

  ;D

[Sachmle]

Here's another go at this idea. This one is NOT a world beater. Can she handle Dutch Frigates solo, NO. Can she operate as part of a group and hold her own, YES. Basically an enlarged Moltke w/ 12" guns (Undergunned, I know). Strength in numbers approach.

SMS Von der Tann, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   22,960 t light; 23,895 t standard; 25,142 t normal; 26,139 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   662.73 ft / 656.17 ft x 87.43 ft x 27.89 ft (normal load)
   202.00 m / 200.00 m x 26.65 m  x 8.50 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,634 lbs / 3,463 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.2" / 260 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   2.56" / 65 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   12.01 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   5.12" / 130 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.77" / 45 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   31.89 ft / 9.72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 28.07 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,245 tons

Complement:
   997 - 1,297

Cost:
   £4.122 million / $16.489 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 938 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 9,043 tons, 36.0 %
      - Belts: 3,868 tons, 15.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 892 tons, 3.5 %
      - Armament: 1,893 tons, 7.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,187 tons, 8.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 204 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,353 tons, 13.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,175 tons, 36.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,182 tons, 8.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34,879 lbs / 15,821 Kg = 40.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.80 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.10 ft / -1.25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.87 ft / 8.80 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.93 ft / 7.60 m
      - Mid (64 %):      24.93 ft / 7.60 m (17.06 ft / 5.20 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Stern:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.41 ft / 6.83 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 40,039 Square feet or 3,720 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Guinness]

I like the economic approach. A question though: if you stretched her to type 3 dock length (721 feet or whatever that is in metric), how fast could she be?

[Sachmle]

I like the economic approach. A question though: if you stretched her to type 3 dock length (721 feet or whatever that is in metric), how fast could she be?

30.49 knots. But that also pushes it to 29,000t.

[Korpen]

Here's another go at this idea. This one is NOT a world beater. Can she handle Dutch Frigates solo, NO. Can she operate as part of a group and hold her own, YES. Basically an enlarged Moltke w/ 12" guns (Undergunned, I know). Strength in numbers approach.

SMS Von der Tann, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   22,960 t light; 23,895 t standard; 25,142 t normal; 26,139 t full load

Wasteful given her size. I do not have SS on this computer, but I think that if you remove the torpedo bulkehead you could remove something like 4000ton from the ship. And at 18-19kton the "numbers" argument makes allot more sense.