firanjian refits ect

[sgdn]

here be refits

first attempt
a Reconstruction of justice and posably here sister ship a few inprovments to fit the role of a battleline escort and defence ship
i have not worked out the costes yet as i dout this is the final version

justice 

as is
Justice , firanji ccs laid down 1902

Displacement:
   13,151 t light; 13,634 t standard; 15,011 t normal; 16,113 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   479.99 ft / 479.99 ft x 70.01 ft x 24.02 ft (normal load)
   146.30 m / 146.30 m x 21.34 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,454 lbs / 2,020 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 70

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.02" / 229 mm   364.99 ft / 111.25 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   7.01" / 178 mm   114.99 ft / 35.05 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   314.99 ft / 96.01 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.02" / 229 mm   7.01" / 178 mm      7.01" / 178 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.99" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 9.02" / 229 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 27,020 ihp / 20,157 Kw = 21.54 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,480 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   677 - 881

Cost:
   £1.501 million / $6.005 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 557 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 4,180 tons, 27.8 %
      - Belts: 1,897 tons, 12.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 739 tons, 4.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,426 tons, 9.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 118 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,094 tons, 27.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,270 tons, 28.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,860 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,760 lbs / 4,881 Kg = 13.1 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.651
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,767 Square feet or 2,394 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 572 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 0.99
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons [as gess as there are no details as far as i know]
25t big radio
25t ?
or
50t really big radio [if thats allowed?]

preposed rebuild
Justice , firanji ccs laid down 1902 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   11,365 t light; 11,991 t standard; 15,391 t normal; 18,111 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   492.13 ft / 492.13 ft x 70.01 ft x 24.02 ft (normal load)
   150.00 m / 150.00 m x 21.34 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      14 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,545 lbs / 2,061 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   6.89" / 175 mm     98.43 ft / 30.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     65.62 ft / 20.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.65" / 42 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   24.61 ft / 7.50 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   7.09" / 180 mm      7.09" / 180 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.99" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 35,140 shp / 26,215 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 18.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,119 tons

Complement:
   690 - 898

Cost:
   £1.058 million / $4.233 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 568 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 4,755 tons, 30.9 %
      - Belts: 1,885 tons, 12.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 492 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 785 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,462 tons, 9.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 131 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,309 tons, 8.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,382 tons, 28.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,026 tons, 26.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,185 lbs / 10,970 Kg = 29.4 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.651
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.03 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,419 Square feet or 2,454 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 573 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons [subject to change in detail]
50t as is
250t fire con
50t radar type stuff [1905]
corrected error

well what does the gallery think?

[The Rock Doctor]

I'd have to see your cost estimate before I can comment on the value of the work.

[sgdn]

here are the costs based it being a reconstruction   
all the lines are item, $, Weight change, bp

   $   tonage   bp
Original   13.151   13151   13.151
light tonage


reconstruction 3.28775   1.3151
guns   0.022   11   0.011
armour   0.561   561   0.561
functional miscellaneous
weight     0.3   300   0.3
leanthening -3.572    -1786   -3.572   [yes the Weight has gone down]
bunkreage    1.011      2022      
engine   -5.57   -2785   -2.785   [same here]
totals   -3.96025      -4.1699   

[P3D]

You are apparently replacing the whole belt armor and CT, and apparently make te main belt shorter. That means that the end of the magazines won't get armor, despite what SS2 says.

You don't have to pay for bunkerage change, but for the whole new engine, the reciprocating engine won't transform itself into a turbine on its own. 1.3BP and $2.6.

[sgdn]

version 2  costs $4.71025 and -0.1524 bp unless i am miss reading the rules for reconstruction

Justice , firanji ccs laid down 1902 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   11,618 t light; 12,275 t standard; 16,273 t normal; 19,472 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   520.34 ft / 520.34 ft x 70.01 ft x 24.02 ft (normal load)
   158.60 m / 158.60 m x 21.34 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      14 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,545 lbs / 2,061 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   364.99 ft / 111.25 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   7.01" / 178 mm   114.99 ft / 35.05 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     40.35 ft / 12.30 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   7.01" / 178 mm      7.01" / 178 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.99" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 41,898 shp / 31,256 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 19.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7,197 tons

Complement:
   719 - 936

Cost:
   £1.102 million / $4.409 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 568 tons, 3.5 %
   Armour: 4,494 tons, 27.6 %
      - Belts: 2,032 tons, 12.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 780 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,546 tons, 9.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 136 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,561 tons, 9.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,629 tons, 28.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,656 tons, 28.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 365 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,815 lbs / 11,256 Kg = 30.1 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.651
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.24 ft / 4.64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,934 Square feet or 2,595 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 130 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 570 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

   £   tones   bp
   13.151   13151   13.151

reconstruction   3.28775      1.3151
new guns    0.022   11   0.011
scrap old engine   -0.6405   -4270   -0.6405
new engines   3.126   1563   1.563
change in bunkrage   1.316   2632      
lenthening the ship   -3.066   -1533   -3.066   [yes the displace ment has gone down]
up amouring    0.33   330   0.33
armour added to main belt turret faces and coning tower   

Miscellaneous weight addition [functional]   0.315   315   0.315
         
total   4.69025$      -0.1724 bp
   
Miscellaneous weight            
as built 50 t            
25t    big radio         
25t   Flagstuff?         
post refit 439t            
250   firecon         
25   big radio   part of origona fittings      
25   reserved for radar type stuff x2         
25   flag stuff   part of origona fittings            
25   parvanes
10   damage cintrol stuff
5   more comuncations stuff [signal lamps flags ect]

[P3D]

Yes you are misreading the rules.

[Guinness]

When the calculations for new minus old result in a negative number, you should use '0' instead of the negative number. In other words, you don't get a credit if the ship comes out at a lighter displacement, for instance. I'll admit that this isn't currently spelled out explicitly, but is more of a common sense thing.

If you are taking material out, like guns, old armor, machinery, etc. you may scrap that material, but then you get back 15% of it's value in $ and BP.

I don't have time now to check the calculations for this ship in detail (I've got 40 odd people coming over to celebrate a 2 year old's birthday), but later on this weekend...

[sgdn]

no worries dont bother about checking my math on this one

thats the reason that i put this up to check i had it right and that i had not done some thing really messely stupid 

[maddox]

It seems we, moderators, forgot to add the old rule (Pre-Nverse III) that VTE's can't be exchanged for Turbines due very big differences in lay out of shafts.

[P3D]

It seems we, moderators, forgot to add the old rule (Pre-Nverse III) that VTE's can't be exchanged for Turbines due very big differences in lay out of shafts.

As I understood it, possible with reconstruction - you are moving bulkheads around anyways.

[Sachmle]

I also recommended once before that if one switchs to turbo-electric drive during reconstruction/refurbishment one could keep the original shaft runs and just mount the electric motors where necessary to maintain said shaft runs.

[Guinness]

It seems we, moderators, forgot to add the old rule (Pre-Nverse III) that VTE's can't be exchanged for Turbines due very big differences in lay out of shafts.

As I understood it, possible with reconstruction - you are moving bulkheads around anyways.

I also recommended once before that if one switchs to turbo-electric drive during reconstruction/refurbishment one could keep the original shaft runs and just mount the electric motors where necessary to maintain said shaft runs.

As I've understood it, it wasn't just a matter of moving bulkheads, but shaft alignment too as Sachmle points out. I think it's probably possible to replace VTE engines with turbines if you rearrange the machinery spaces, but it would be tough. Switching to turbo-electric would certainly seem (theoretically) easier. I suppose it might be true that replacing VTE with geared turbines might also be a little bit easier.

In the interest of not having a rule just to have a rule, and not limiting future plans for people, I personally would say that switching to turbines from VTE in a reconstruction isn't impossible, but as usual still reserve moderators' discretion for individual designs just in case they strain credibility.

No matter what, such a switch, IMHO, would require wholesale replacement of existing machinery to be possible or indeed worth the trouble, so on a ship of any size and consequence ought to be pretty expensive.

[P3D]

The main issue is simply that VTE engined ships are obsolete and one cannot upgrade them efficiently (VTE weights a lot, plus slower). If such a reconstruction is allowed, nations could extend the useful life of their old predreadnought fleets.

It seems we, moderators, forgot to add the old rule (Pre-Nverse III) that VTE's can't be exchanged for Turbines due very big differences in lay out of shafts.

As I understood it, possible with reconstruction - you are moving bulkheads around anyways.

I also recommended once before that if one switchs to turbo-electric drive during reconstruction/refurbishment one could keep the original shaft runs and just mount the electric motors where necessary to maintain said shaft runs.

As I've understood it, it wasn't just a matter of moving bulkheads, but shaft alignment too as Sachmle points out. I think it's probably possible to replace VTE engines with turbines if you rearrange the machinery spaces, but it would be tough. Switching to turbo-electric would certainly seem (theoretically) easier. I suppose it might be true that replacing VTE with geared turbines might also be a little bit easier.

In the interest of not having a rule just to have a rule, and not limiting future plans for people, I personally would say that switching to turbines from VTE in a reconstruction isn't impossible, but as usual still reserve moderators' discretion for individual designs just in case they strain credibility.

No matter what, such a switch, IMHO, would require wholesale replacement of existing machinery to be possible or indeed worth the trouble, so on a ship of any size and consequence ought to be pretty expensive.

[Sachmle]

What P3D said is entirely true, but I wonder if the reason it was never done IRL isn't that it's impossible, just REALLY EXPENSIVE and the ships w/ VTEs were obsolete even IF they had turbines.

[Guinness]

What P3D said is entirely true, but I wonder if the reason it was never done IRL isn't that it's impossible, just REALLY EXPENSIVE and the ships w/ VTEs were obsolete even IF they had turbines.

I think I've said before that I believe the reason it never happened IRL was a combination of the WW1 and the resultant Washington Treaty. But that's just my assessment.

Truthfully, I've been trying and trying to rebuild the CSN's Stuart class (1896 AC with 100 coal VTE engines) into something useful. It can be done, but it isn't cost effective. The cheapest option so far is an oiler conversion, but it's cost per ton of oil carried is about 4 times what the CSN's purpose built oilers cost (which isn't a surprise). Anything with modern fighting power is way way too expensive.

Expense, of course, is a matter of opinion. The CSA right now is sensitive both to $ cost and BP cost (having 25 BP on total revenue of $147). Orange maybe is a little more sensitive to the BP cost of things (having 21.5 BP on total revenue of $170). It's conceivable that other nations with even less BP per $ might consider such reconstructions even "cheaper". Somehow this doesn't surprise me though. The lower one's ratio of heavy industry, it seems to me, the more attractive reconstructing an old ship would seem to be.