What if DKB built a Dutch style BC?

[Sachmle]

This would take some tech acquisitions and some in house research, but would be possible by 1920. The question is, would she be effective by 1923 when she'd be completed? Layout would be similar to RL Kongo w/ the "Q" turret actually set back, but still on the main deck (hence the 70% mid break). The 12cm would be 4 twins with those closer to amidships raised over the ones on the ends. 37mm AA in twin mounts on top of "B", "Q", and "Y". Thoughts?

Ersatz Scharnhorst, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   27,000 t light; 28,278 t standard; 31,090 t normal; 33,339 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.77 ft / 716.04 ft x 95.14 ft x 30.35 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 218.25 m x 29.00 m  x 9.25 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,438 lbs / 5,188 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   465.22 ft / 141.80 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   465.22 ft / 141.80 m   43.47 ft / 13.25 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.06" / 230 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   9.06" / 230 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 9.06" / 230 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 114,000 shp / 85,044 Kw = 29.15 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,061 tons

Complement:
   1,169 - 1,521

Cost:
   £6.362 million / $25.447 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,415 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 8,900 tons, 28.6 %
      - Belts: 2,315 tons, 7.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,178 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armament: 1,827 tons, 5.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,387 tons, 10.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 193 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,986 tons, 12.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,399 tons, 39.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,090 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41,507 lbs / 18,827 Kg = 31.7 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.526
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.53 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.10 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.61 ft / 7.50 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.15 ft / 6.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,505 Square feet or 4,320 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 898 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Honestly, comparable to my cruisers being built - save the marginal vertical armor, and being 5 years late.

[Sachmle]

Fair enough, how about 1918 then? Dropped the deck to 75mm and thickened the sides up.

Ersatz Scharnhorst, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   27,000 t light; 28,190 t standard; 30,005 t normal; 31,457 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.79 ft / 716.04 ft x 95.96 ft x 28.41 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 218.25 m x 29.25 m  x 8.66 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,438 lbs / 5,188 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.25" / 235 mm   485.56 ft / 148.00 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   230.31 ft / 70.20 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   485.56 ft / 148.00 m   7.38 ft / 2.25 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.38" / 35 mm   485.56 ft / 148.00 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.25" / 235 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      8.66" / 220 mm
   2nd:   9.25" / 235 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      8.66" / 220 mm
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 9.25" / 235 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 114,000 shp / 85,044 Kw = 29.24 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,266 tons

Complement:
   1,139 - 1,481

Cost:
   £5.456 million / $21.824 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,415 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 8,918 tons, 29.7 %
      - Belts: 3,517 tons, 11.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 812 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 1,806 tons, 6.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,590 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 192 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 4,247 tons, 14.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,119 tons, 40.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,005 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     38,090 lbs / 17,277 Kg = 29.1 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.538
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.45 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.61 ft / 6.59 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,416 Square feet or 4,405 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 884 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[P3D]

What this ship offers over your 28kts battlecruisers?

I'd say a fast BB is a better idea. The latest Dutch ships are armored almost to that level (11" belt  and barbettes). If you want to keep at 27000t decrease speed to 28kts (like all your other fast ships) and spend it on armor.

OTOH, if you want 29kts+ speed I understand that too.

[Sachmle]

What this ship offers over your 28kts battlecruisers?

Well, they offer 2 more (8 v 6) much larger (35cm v 28cm) guns, thicker belt (23.5cm v 20cm), thicker deck (75mm v 65mm), a TDS, more range (9000nm @ 12kt v 10000nm @ 10kt), AND they are a little faster. ;)

If you want to keep at 27000t decrease speed to 28kts (like all your other fast ships) and spend it on armor.

I'll try that in a bit. Supper time now.

[P3D]

My point is, it could take out the same targets faster, but anything heavier (armored and armed) would be a problem.

[Sachmle]

Here is the one @ ~28kts. Allows upping the Main/End/Upper belts, turret face/barbette, and CT armor. Also thickened and deepened the TDS.

Ersatz Scharnhorst, Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   27,000 t light; 28,191 t standard; 30,005 t normal; 31,456 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.79 ft / 716.04 ft x 93.50 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 218.25 m x 28.50 m  x 8.75 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,441 lbs / 5,190 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   465.22 ft / 141.80 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   250.66 ft / 76.40 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   465.22 ft / 141.80 m   7.38 ft / 2.25 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   465.22 ft / 141.80 m   35.27 ft / 10.75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 255 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.04" / 255 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 98,000 shp / 73,108 Kw = 28.15 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,265 tons

Complement:
   1,139 - 1,481

Cost:
   £5.290 million / $21.159 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,415 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 9,697 tons, 32.3 %
      - Belts: 3,933 tons, 13.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 956 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,055 tons, 6.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,544 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 209 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,651 tons, 12.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,937 tons, 39.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,005 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,689 lbs / 18,456 Kg = 31.1 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.546
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.66 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.45 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (70 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.61 ft / 6.59 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,568 Square feet or 4,326 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 876 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[mentat]

I notice the 28 knot version is not only better armoured but lower cost - I still think the armour is light for a near 14" gun ship - 12"-13" belt and turrets seems advisable if can be afforded - I think gives a better all-round capability.

Pity the commander who faces the quandary - shall I stay and do my job but risk the ship being blown-up or alternatively run away ...

[The Rock Doctor]

A ship with such armor would be about 15% larger/more expensive - at least, that's my experience in designing the Colombian Avenger (as opposed to "The Colombian Avenger", who is probably a comic book character).

The last two designs seem to depend on whether the extra knot of speed or extra ~inch of armor is the more important design feature.  Which brings the discussion back to what she's intended to be hunting.

[mentat]

I'll agree to disagree ;)