Orange Capital Ships - Old Thread

[Desertfox]

I think if there is a change to the AA rule, it should deal with the number of guns and not type or size. Like I've said before, there is not going to be any massed aircraft raids on large ships for at least another 20 years. A capital ship in range of land based aircraft is in range of MTBs, coastal submarines, and defensive minefields, all better options than planes dropping 30lb dynamite sticks. A torpedo bomber dropping a single light torpedo at 70 knots is hardly better than a MTB dropping four larger torpedoes at 35 knots.

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't want to regulate AA gun numbers any more than I want to regulate secondary gun numbers or torpedo numbers or depth charge numbers.

[P3D]

Orange has two semi-arcadia battleships, 6x12" 20kts but no fire control. The first finished 1906, it is time to refurbish them after 10 years of uneventful service.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=186.0

Decided to put the two refurbishment options up to Discussion. Which is the better option?

The first is a minimal one. Installing oil burners in the boilers, a fire control system on the cost of reduced oil bunkerage. Add 8x1" AA guns. Range would be the same as with coal firing, but overall relatively short. 4000@12). Cost is $0.5 and 0.25BP (FC), $2.8 (refurbishment), $0.25 and 0.25 BP (assorted equipment and structural strengthening). Total $3.55 and 0.5BP.
Range with 100% fuel oil is 4000@12, 90% coal firing is kept in the sim below to get correct weights.

Second is the more extensive modification. Besides the FC and AAA, the ship gets a new oil-firing powerplant to get the 23kts speed of the battleline and some misc.weight. Additional cost is $2.6 and 1.3BP for the engine, $0.1 and 0.1BP for the additional functional misc. weight (rest is reserve), and the ship also gets nice cruising range. Cost is $6.25 and 1.9BP.

Economy version:


Whitwatersrand Battleship, laid down 1905, refurbished 1917

Displacement:
   14,030 t light; 14,719 t standard; 15,645 t normal; 16,385 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1905 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6,538 lbs / 2,966 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

   Weight of broadside 6,534 lbs / 2,964 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   140.00 ft / 42.67 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,002 shp / 14,921 Kw = 19.92 kts
   Range 4,490nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,666 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   699 - 909

Cost:
   £1.408 million / $5.633 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
   Armour: 6,357 tons, 40.6 %
      - Belts: 3,278 tons, 21.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 441 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 1,288 tons, 8.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,175 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 175 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 1,650 tons, 10.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,886 tons, 31.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,614 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 320 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,788 lbs / 8,069 Kg = 20.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.614
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.59 ft / 7.19 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.69 ft / 4.78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,416 Square feet or 2,361 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 640 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.45
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


The re-engined version:

Whitwatersrand Battleship, laid down 1905, refurbished 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   13,785 t light; 14,474 t standard; 15,645 t normal; 16,581 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6,538 lbs / 2,966 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   140.00 ft / 42.67 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 34,982 shp / 26,096 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,107 tons

Complement:
   699 - 909

Cost:
   £1.351 million / $5.406 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
   Armour: 6,357 tons, 40.6 %
      - Belts: 3,278 tons, 21.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 441 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 1,288 tons, 8.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,175 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 175 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 1,303 tons, 8.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,957 tons, 31.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,860 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,603 lbs / 8,892 Kg = 22.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.614
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.59 ft / 7.19 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.69 ft / 4.78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,416 Square feet or 2,361 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.49
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Sachmle]

DKB Hat on: Which ever is easier to sink.

Sachmle Hat on: The second is Soooo worth the extra cost.

[Jefgte]

Second rebuilt to light BB is better.

With about 20 years of life to come. it's the most interresting rebuilt.

(not realy a big surprise from Jef  :D ).


;)

[P3D]

The second option would also give me a 4-ship 12" BB-division.

Now let's see if i can find a use for the machinery...
Apparently not much.

If I use them in a sloop, I need 300t larger ship (1300t instead of 1000t) for saving 0.1BP and $0.3. So I need to build 4 sloops total with one turbine each.
Scrapping the machinery yields 0.2475BP - so final cost would be $6 and 1.65BP.

[Jefgte]

Reuse the machinery

You have 20 000SHP x 2
you could built 2 sloops with 20 000SHP or
1 cruiser  with 40 000SHP perhaps more interresting.

Design nota:
- BBs Boillers are tall, so you need to have a sup deck on the freeboard level with the top of the boilers. That mean also that middle TTs & Barbettes in "Centreline grouped-centre" disposition are not possible.

Interresting Design Chalenge to do  ;)

[P3D]

I tried to get 23kts speed with the old machinery - arguing that I'd install 8 turbines with TE propulsion, but the ship would be just damn too big, like 19000t and have only 6x12" guns.

The best option I found is to install the machinery as powerplant and connect it to the grid. The turbines are a mere 10 years old anyways and not worn out, and they would still provide 30MW of electricity. They weight twice as much as 1916 machinery, so the 1650t of machinery of one ship would be (roughly) the equivalent of $1.65 investment in IC. Either in Orange or donated to a friendly small nation (Madagascar/Oman).

[Jefgte]

I tried to get 23kts speed with the old machinery - arguing that I'd install 8 turbines with TE propulsion, but the ship would be just damn too big, like 19000t and have only 6x12" guns.

You install 8 turbines ... TE propulsion...

You have actualy:
Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,002 shp / 14,921 Kw = 19.92 kts
   Range 4,490nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,666 tons (90% coal)

IMO, change just the boilers to 1916 model
You have 4 turbines/4 shafts, you could have 4 or 8 1916 boilers .
It is not too difficult to increase the speed from 19.9 to 23kts
with about 40 000SHP.

Caution, if you increase the speed to 23kts, the Seaboat quality (1.37) decrease
Increase the length & perhaps the stem & forecastle by 0.5 deck.


Autofagasta rebuilt is:
3T2x340 - 23kts - 16200t
Whitwatersrand rebuilt is:
3T2x305 - 23kts - 19000t ...hmmm... heavy ???

Did you made the SS


;)

[P3D]

New boilers are not enough as the turbines are really first-generation ones, 20% maybe but not doubling the power.

Lengthening the ship would be too expensive for marginal increase of combat capability. The ship is fine with 1.00+ seakeeping, granted a wet boat but having a higher bow would require rebuild instead of reconstruction IMO.

My refit is <14,000t light (see first post), the19,000t figure is for reusing the old machinery.

Just don't worth it, the machinery is so much larger that savings from reusing even the turbines only are lost in the need for a heavier hull. Year 1916 engines have twice the SHP/ton, cheaper to build the ship with new engines.

[P3D]

OK, I checked it, as an exercise. New oil-fired boilers, 8 old turbines driving dynamos for TE (throw in some misc weight for that). With 1908 engines (to get the appropriate engine weight) I could get 2T3x13.5" on 18800t and adequate-ish armor that could do 23kts, and I could reuse 1.6BP worth of turbines.
But rather spend 10BP more on a ship with 16" guns, as I'd have four light battleships with the refits.