1917 Habsburg Panzerkreuzer

[Borys]

Grafin von Mogami, Habsburgs Panzerkreuzer laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   14 170 t light; 14 862 t standard; 16 387 t normal; 17 607 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570,54 ft / 570,00 ft x 77,40 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   173,90 m / 173,74 m x 23,59 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (3x2 guns), 380,00lbs / 172,37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      4 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (2x2 guns), 380,00lbs / 172,37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4 700 lbs / 2 132 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   335,00 ft / 102,11 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   235,00 ft / 71,63 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   335,00 ft / 102,11 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      4,00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70 713 shp / 52 752 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 745 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   723 - 941

Cost:
   £2,503 million / $10,010 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 567 tons, 3,5%
   Armour: 4 440 tons, 27,1%
      - Belts: 2 299 tons, 14,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 915 tons, 5,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1 088 tons, 6,6%
      - Conning Tower: 139 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2 885 tons, 17,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 928 tons, 36,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 216 tons, 13,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17 931 lbs / 8 133 Kg = 49,2 x 9,0 " / 229 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (27%):   20,00 ft / 6,10 m
      - Mid (35%):      17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Stern:      17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,12 ft / 5,83 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133,3%
   Waterplane Area: 29 395 Square feet or 2 731 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 659 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,55
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


Classical Habsburg design:
- sides armoured up to the weather deck
- the barbettes of the deck level turrets are thinner as consequence
- partly coal burning, to take advantage of greater availability of this fuel in the colonies
- the AA guns/machine guns are in the misc. weight, as far as I am concerned

I am not happy with gunnery platform, nor with sea keeping;
The guns are the historical RN 9,2"/50.;
Anton, Berta and Emil are on deck level, while Caesar and Dora are elevated;

Not sure if I can/should build them, considering that I have ONE Type 3 drydock, and no such slips.
Borys

[P3D]

You could easily squeeze the ship into 170m length, seakeeping would still be that of and "average" 170m long ship, i.e. not to bad.

You won't get good stability and steadiness on such a platform.

UB is on the high side. Main belt reaches 8' down BWL, excessive for a cruiser. Rather have uniform 6" belt, topping it with the armored deck.

[Jefgte]

14000t -28 kts & 10x229

IMO, The hull is too short, increase to 180m or more
& reduce draught


;)

[P3D]

The Orange ACs are 170m, with 29kts speed on 13300t. 1kts less would allow installing one more turret, your SHP would stay below 80K even if the ship is slightly larger.

[The Rock Doctor]

Length gets to be a challenge with this size of cruiser.  My perspective is that fitting into a type 2 dock will be useful if the ship takes damage somewhere outside the Med.

Five turrets take their toll on hull strength, seakeeping, and stability - but I agree that the stats you do have are reasonable.  Consider knocking the range down a bit - say, 8,000 nm -  and using the hull strength gains to raise freeboard a bit.

[Borys]

Shorter version:

Grafin von Mogami, Habsburgs Panzerkreuzer laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   13 980 t light; 14 667 t standard; 16 174 t normal; 17 380 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   555,54 ft / 555,00 ft x 80,00 ft x 25,50 ft (normal load)
   169,33 m / 169,16 m x 24,38 m  x 7,77 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (3x2 guns), 380,00lbs / 172,37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      4 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (2x2 guns), 380,00lbs / 172,37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4 700 lbs / 2 132 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   335,00 ft / 102,11 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   220,00 ft / 67,06 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   335,00 ft / 102,11 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 93% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      4,00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 71 536 shp / 53 366 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 713 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   716 - 932

Cost:
   £2,499 million / $9,996 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 567 tons, 3,5%
   Armour: 4 245 tons, 26,2%
      - Belts: 2 101 tons, 13,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 911 tons, 5,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1 095 tons, 6,8%
      - Conning Tower: 138 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 919 tons, 18,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 899 tons, 36,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 195 tons, 13,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16 973 lbs / 7 699 Kg = 46,6 x 9,0 " / 229 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (40%):   21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Mid (40%):      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,60 ft / 5,97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,9%
   Waterplane Area: 29 583 Square feet or 2 748 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 661 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,64
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[The Rock Doctor]

So you don't lose very much performance with the smaller length and tonnage.

You're already building four panzerkreuzers, as I recall - do you need more?

[Borys]

1 - I lack cruisers
2 -  this class would be larger by half  and much heavier gunned - the "Schwantz-" class are 9000/4x2x7,5" ships, so much smaller ...

Borys

[Sachmle]

Personally I have not decided if there is any use for this type of cruiser here. In RL they were usefull to some extent, but I've always read/heard that the 6" CL were just as effective as the 8" ones for less tonnage. For the 13k+ your spending here I'd take the plunge and spend the extra 2k and build a "Moltke" style light BC.

However IF you want to build them I have a triple 24cm/L50 you could use instead..maybe drop the extra fore turret for the extra weight.... still 3x3 w/ 24cm instead of 23cm....190kg shell...should be heavier firepower w/ similar weight and fewer holes in the hull for barbettes.

[The Rock Doctor]

I can see the appeal for the Hapsburgers, where there may be a need for a fast, heavy combatant but an inability or unwillingness to build battlecruisers for the job.  I assume, in this case, that it's either trade defence or fleet scouting.

[Borys]

Yes, the Habsburgs are not into battlecruisers.
So, for trade defence/fleet scouting. the option would be 4 more Schwantz class, or 2 of these larger vessels.

True, the shortening did not harm the design much.
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Assuming you need two cruisers for fleet scouting, the question's whether you think four other cruisers are enough for trade defence.  I'm inclined to go for the larger numbers.

[P3D]

The problem with 'upper belt providing additional protection' is that it assumes no plunging shells. Against plunging shells to defend barbette you need additional armored weather deck (additional weight) or having the armored deck so high - but then you need 6" upper belt otherwise shells penetrating 4" armor could get into the machinery/magazine spaces.

Best solution is to increase barbette armor to uniform 6". Should not be that much of weight.

The forecastle should not be at 40%. SS assumes no weaponry on the forecastle thus increased freeboard is 'much cheaper' there.

The '6" is as good as 8" ' statement is not universally true. If you are facing ships armored against 6" guns or ships on open seas the 9" with longer range is preferable.

[Borys]

Thicker barbettes., fixed the f'castle error

Grafin von Mogami, Habsburgs Panzerkreuzer laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   14 153 t light; 14 842 t standard; 16 275 t normal; 17 422 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   555,54 ft / 555,00 ft x 80,50 ft x 25,50 ft (normal load)
   169,33 m / 169,16 m x 24,54 m  x 7,77 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (3x2 guns), 380,00lbs / 172,37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      4 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (2x2 guns), 380,00lbs / 172,37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      12 - 5,30" / 135 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4 700 lbs / 2 132 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   330,00 ft / 100,58 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   225,00 ft / 68,58 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   330,00 ft / 100,58 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 91% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 71 882 shp / 53 624 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 8 500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 580 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
   719 - 936

Cost:
   £2,514 million / $10,054 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 567 tons, 3,5%
   Armour: 4 359 tons, 26,8%
      - Belts: 2 090 tons, 12,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1 030 tons, 6,3%
      - Armour Deck: 1 101 tons, 6,8%
      - Conning Tower: 138 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 933 tons, 18,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 943 tons, 36,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 123 tons, 13,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17 126 lbs / 7 768 Kg = 47,0 x 9,0 " / 229 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,89 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (40%):   21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Mid (40%):      21,00 ft / 6,40 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,60 ft / 5,97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126,2%
   Waterplane Area: 29 768 Square feet or 2 765 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 664 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,63
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[The Rock Doctor]

Kooky thought - an enlarged Schwantz with 5x2 or even 6x2 - 7.5" as an alternative.  You'll be trading penetrative power for shells in the air and soft-kill ability, which might be favorable against AMCs and light cruisers anyway.