Iberian Cruisers

[miketr]

Just something I am playing around with...  Thinking about having two of the 150's superfiring above B and X turrets.

Michael

AC-1918, Iberia Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   12,999 t light; 13,688 t standard; 15,031 t normal; 16,106 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   649.61 ft / 649.61 ft x 72.18 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   198.00 m / 198.00 m x 22.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (2x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,132 lbs / 2,328 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   377.30 ft / 115.00 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   377.30 ft / 115.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 65,000 shp / 48,490 Kw = 28.02 kts
   Range 14,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,418 tons

Complement:
   678 - 882

Cost:
   £2.181 million / $8.724 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 641 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 3,196 tons, 21.3 %
      - Belts: 1,165 tons, 7.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 739 tons, 4.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,214 tons, 8.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,422 tons, 16.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,450 tons, 42.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,032 tons, 13.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 290 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,413 lbs / 9,259 Kg = 42.8 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.34 ft / 6.20 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.03 ft / 5.80 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.70 ft / 5.70 m
      - Stern:      18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.62 ft / 5.98 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,342 Square feet or 3,098 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 657 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Would have bad effect on the stability. Not just because of the twice-superimposed turrets but because of the conning tower and bridge should be raised another deck level or so.

Draft is too shallow for the beam - at least according to my 1:3 rule.
You should be able to squeeze the ship into 170m, as my similar sized (13300t) armored cruisers fit in a lvl 2 drydock.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Not too many 15cm's?
Borys

[maddox]

It seems this ship has the same problem and the earlier AA equiped French ships - too large caliber.
I had to change those in SS files of build or refitted ships.

Borys, can you ever have enough secundaries?

[miketr]

Its got more armor but cost seakeeping; better trade off.

Michael

AC-1918a, Iberia Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   12,909 t light; 13,726 t standard; 14,973 t normal; 15,971 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   554.64 ft / 551.18 ft x 72.18 ft x 23.95 ft (normal load)
   169.05 m / 168.00 m x 22.00 m  x 7.30 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,088 lbs / 2,308 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 175
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   192.88 ft / 58.79 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 69,080 shp / 51,534 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 14,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,245 tons

Complement:
   676 - 879

Cost:
   £2.203 million / $8.813 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 636 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 3,656 tons, 24.4 %
      - Belts: 1,622 tons, 10.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 945 tons, 6.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,011 tons, 6.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,574 tons, 17.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,743 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,064 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,239 lbs / 7,820 Kg = 36.2 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.77 ft / 6.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,764 Square feet or 2,579 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 669 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[miketr]

Ahoj!
Not too many 15cm's?
Borys

Its got 12 of them... six to a broadside.  Bismarck had the same number.

Michael

[P3D]

8x15cm are on the centerline by the report.
Why not ~12cm guns instead?

[miketr]

I could put 50% more 120's and up the armor to like 165mm if I went with the 120mm guns.  Which would down the road make a nice DP weapon no doubt.  For now its a design quirk of the Iberian navy to use 150's in this role.  Also the 150's have way more punch than the 120's.

And fixed the secondary location issue...

Michael

[Jefgte]

I agree, 150 had more punch but need hoist
120 are lighter & don't need hoist. they have also rapid firing, better to engage DDs.

-4x4 blocks of 120 (with 4 RF) could engage 4 DDs 

        RF
-o  -o  -o  -o



;)

[P3D]

12cm would need hoists, too.

[Jefgte]

- Hoist is neccesary for twin mount

- Handling is also possible with 24kg skell.
- Difficult x 2 with 48kg shell.

For a block with 4x120 - 2 hoists are enought.

[miketr]

For those that care here is the 120mm secondary version.

AC-1918b, Iberia Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   12,849 t light; 13,648 t standard; 14,891 t normal; 15,886 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   554.64 ft / 551.18 ft x 72.18 ft x 23.95 ft (normal load)
   169.05 m / 168.00 m x 22.00 m  x 7.30 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,907 lbs / 2,226 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 175
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   192.88 ft / 58.79 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 68,751 shp / 51,288 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 14,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,238 tons

Complement:
   673 - 876

Cost:
   £2.166 million / $8.663 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 613 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 3,701 tons, 24.9 %
      - Belts: 1,622 tons, 10.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 994 tons, 6.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,008 tons, 6.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,562 tons, 17.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,673 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,042 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,286 lbs / 7,841 Kg = 36.3 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.547
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.77 ft / 6.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,687 Square feet or 2,572 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 662 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.57
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[The Rock Doctor]

It's an alright design - but you do have four ships of generally similar capablity already.  Is there a need for more?

I'd scale down to the 120mm guns for a ship of this size, and probably fewer of them

[miketr]

The problem with the older cruisers is their speed; 20.75 knots and 24.5 knots.  This design is faster than the older ships, with a better layout of weapons and more ones at that.  I have always viewed the Iberian Navy as being more cruiser focused and so I am always thinking about more cruisers.  I don't know if I would build these at all to be honest as my building program is locked in for some time.

As to fewer of the 120's how many do you suggest?  I was figuring if I have some of them superfiring space would be less of an issue.

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

I'd be thinking twelve, tops - and if the primary function is trade protection on the high seas, where torpedo-boats are infrequent, maybe less.